Debate night live thread!!!!!!

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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Hagoth
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Hagoth » Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:26 am

I was feeling more of a mix of this:
Image


and this:
Image
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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jfro18
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by jfro18 » Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:22 am

One of the narratives that you see from the MMs all the time (and in the debate) is that anyone who tells someone the church isn't true needs to replace that person's 'faith' with something else.

They did it against RFM, Dehlin, and Reel in their 'homewreckers for hire' podcast last year and then at the debate again this week. I get it a lot too for the stuff I've done online - that if I want to tell someone that the church isn't true I have to have a replacement for the church.

It's a deflection from the issues with the church, of course, but it's also shifting the burden away from the church and onto the person who talks about it. And I've tried to answer people in the past by saying that who am I to tell anyone what they need to do? I mean the moment I start telling people what the only way is is the moment I become the very problem I believe the church creates.

I thought RFM probably could've handled that better because the MMs really hammered on that, but I think the entire premise of that argument is really unfair to the critic by shifting the burden onto them. It's like saying that a whistleblower for a company needs to then find the money/employees/etc that were lost once its discovered a company was doing something dishonest.

dogbite
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by dogbite » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:35 pm

I think the claim that the attacker has to replace the suspect worldview with another is an obfuscation.

While one generally makes an attack on a worldview from within a different worldview, the attack contains the premises of the worldview the attacker finds preferable. So the attack itself points to the alternate.

But in the case of mormonism specifically, there are probably as many paths out of mormonism as there are people who are in or have been in it. If you leave mormonism over an emotional revulsion of how polygamy was introduced, practiced, hidden and then justified, that is a different attack than to leave for the failures of BoM archaeology. Neither premises a worldview particularly. Neither is necessarliy an attack on a whole moral system. Neither is an attack on faith in a divine being. The MM are jumping to this point unjustifiably.

If one were to attack mormonism as a failed worldview based on epistemology, then the attack will include an alternate epistemology in the arguments, even if not explicitly. Just to say feelings is not an reliable indicator of truth is to juxtapose rationalism vs empiricism for example.

However, there are attacks on worldviews that have no solution. The difference between rationalism and empricism comes down to what is sufficient justification for the differing assumptions. There is no absolute objective standard. This flaw is present in all human epistemologies.

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Hagoth
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Hagoth » Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:48 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:22 am
I thought RFM probably could've handled that better because the MMs really hammered on that, but I think the entire premise of that argument is really unfair to the critic by shifting the burden onto them. It's like saying that a whistleblower for a company needs to then find the money/employees/etc that were lost once its discovered a company was doing something dishonest.
I totally agree. I don't know if you could hear it on the recording, because everybody was talking at once, but RFM said, "Where should I send them? The Jehovah's Witnesses?"

But they just kept hammering him with it. I wish he would have said a few things like, "So it's better to believe a lie than know the truth?" and "I obviously have more faith in people than you do. You think they're too weak to live without Mormonism. I think they'll do just fine for once not having someone tell them exactly how to act and think."

I think this question was definitely twisted a little bit against RFM because Shawn McCraney added that people come out of Mormonism completely destroyed. Of course, Shawn's job is to usher people into his faith system, and helping them move on without Jesus isn't in the cards. The big overarching fallacy of the entire debate is that everyone who believes in Mormonism is better and happier than everyone else. The less you believe in Mormonism the more miserable and useless your life is and the more you are trying to destroy everything that is good and virtuous.

But I think RFM did a wonderful job. There wasn't much he could do with the really horrible behavior of those clowns beyond trying to keep his cool.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Red Ryder
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:14 am

Has RFM been excommunicated yet?
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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moksha
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by moksha » Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:36 am

dogbite wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:35 pm
I think the claim that the attacker has to replace the suspect worldview with another is an obfuscation.
I've always thought that when the LDS Church gives someone the boot, they should make a referral to a more loving denomination to help cushion the fall. They never do, but it would be nice. There are a number of faith traditions that will accept homosexuals as well as those questioning their faith. It is part of being a good Shepard rather than a rottweiler.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

stuck
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by stuck » Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:04 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:48 pm
jfro18 wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:22 am
I thought RFM probably could've handled that better because the MMs really hammered on that, but I think the entire premise of that argument is really unfair to the critic by shifting the burden onto them. It's like saying that a whistleblower for a company needs to then find the money/employees/etc that were lost once its discovered a company was doing something dishonest.
I totally agree. I don't know if you could hear it on the recording, because everybody was talking at once, but RFM said, "Where should I send them? The Jehovah's Witnesses?"

But they just kept hammering him with it. I wish he would have said a few things like, "So it's better to believe a lie than know the truth?" and "I obviously have more faith in people than you do. You think they're too weak to live without Mormonism. I think they'll do just fine for once not having someone tell them exactly how to act and think."

I think this question was definitely twisted a little bit against RFM because Shawn McCraney added that people come out of Mormonism completely destroyed. Of course, Shawn's job is to usher people into his faith system, and helping them move on without Jesus isn't in the cards. The big overarching fallacy of the entire debate is that everyone who believes in Mormonism is better and happier than everyone else. The less you believe in Mormonism the more miserable and useless your life is and the more you are trying to destroy everything that is good and virtuous.

But I think RFM did a wonderful job. There wasn't much he could do with the really horrible behavior of those clowns beyond trying to keep his cool.
This is a great post Hagoth and jfro18! I think this is another strawman attack where they aren't attacking the issues of whether the church is true or false, rather they are trying to denigrate the character of those who leave. It is maddening that they do this because I'm sure that most like us and others who have left the church are really good people. For example, for myself I would like to keep my family together even though it is mixed faith because my wife is still a believer. And I think that it takes a lot of character to leave--for example those who do it because they don't want their children to be harmed by it.

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Hagoth
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Hagoth » Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:35 pm

stuck wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:04 pm
This is a great post Hagoth and jfro18! I think this is another strawman attack where they aren't attacking the issues of whether the church is true or false, rather they are trying to denigrate the character of those who leave. It is maddening that they do this because I'm sure that most like us and others who have left the church are really good people. For example, for myself I would like to keep my family together even though it is mixed faith because my wife is still a believer. And I think that it takes a lot of character to leave--for example those who do it because they don't want their children to be harmed by it.
Yeah, that was another very annoying point they kept making, that disaffection from the church is the culprit that's breaking up families, rather than the absolute insistence that obedience to the church is more important than the person. In Mormonism families are forever ONLY if they check a very specific set of boxes.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

lostinmiddlemormonism
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by lostinmiddlemormonism » Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:54 pm

I wasn't able to watch live as I had prior commitments with my son, so I watched the recorded video today.

My biggest take away was that the MM's didn't have or claimed not to have had the same experiences as RFM. There was a part during the discussion on the word "know" that was telling. RFM mentioned that he had never heard anyone stand up and say, "I don't know the church is true, but I hope it is" while the MM's and several of their supporters claimed to hear such quite regularly. RFM also accused the MM's of making up a different church than what the LDS church is and then defending that.

The thing is: they are right.

The church today is NOT the church I grew up in in the 70's and 80's, not is it the church that existed when I served a mission in the 90's. This raises two questions:

1. If the doctrine does not change then how to explain all the changes?
2. Why does it always seem to change in response to the critics?
-sidebar- if not for people like RFM, Kate Kelly, The Tanners, etc. then the church that RFM is describing to you would have been your experience as well MM"s.

-lost

Red Ryder
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:45 pm

lostinmiddlemormonism wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:54 pm
The church today is NOT the church I grew up in in the 70's and 80's, not is it the church that existed when I served a mission in the 90's. This raises two questions:

1. If the doctrine does not change then how to explain all the changes?
2. Why does it always seem to change in response to the critics?
-sidebar- if not for people like RFM, Kate Kelly, The Tanners, etc. then the church that RFM is describing to you would have been your experience as well MM"s.

-lost
This is what I try to point out with family. They quickly proclaim this as a benefit of continuing revelation and a living prophet.

The goal posts can move.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Just This Guy
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Just This Guy » Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:28 pm

To the idea of having to replace one faith with another:

Let's look at that from a different angle. Cars.

Someone points out that a person's Ford Pinto has a major design flaw in the gas tank. That car is deeply flawed and likely to kill you. Then they say the Pinto owner needs to throw out their current car and go buy an AMC Gremlin. If someone were to use that line, you would say that they are just trying to get people to by AMC. Maybe even taking advantage of Ford's design flaws as a poor excuse to sell someone a car and a person would ignore the possible good information about the safety of their car.

If it was cars, then you would not trust the person making the claims because they would appear to have ulterior motives. If it was one person making the claim about the Ford, you can examine the claim and do it what you want. You can examine consider a Chevy, or a VW Bug, Dodge Dart, or maybe one of the new fancy Japanese cars.

Really, you need to have a separation between the messenger of the issues with your current car/church and the people selling a new one. When they do both, you have reason not to trust it.

Maybe that is MM's motive. If someone is both messager and salesman, they can make the claim that they are just sell a new church and are not objective for that reason. However, I don't know if MM are that smart to have anything resembling a long game.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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moksha
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by moksha » Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:15 am

Just This Guy wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:28 pm
You can consider a Chevy, or a VW Bug, Dodge Dart, or maybe one of the new fancy Japanese cars.
Yugo girl! :lol: Blame it on Reo. Put on your Temple hat and be a Stud E. Baker. Sorry, I'll quit honking my horn.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Hagoth » Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:30 am

lostinmiddlemormonism wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 1:54 pm
RFM also accused the MM's of making up a different church than what the LDS church is and then defending that.

The thing is: they are right.
That's a great point. If the MMs had said those things even a decade or two ago they would have been booed off the stage by their supporters. Can you imagine a debate 20 years ago with a Kwaku predecessor using the example John Dee's crystal ball gazing as an analog to Joseph Smith? How about stating with certainty that someday it will be common for two men to marry in the temple? Would he have had cheers from the believers in the room?

Of course, this is still a fantasy version of the church. They have just been forced to drag the goalposts a bit further. Ask Kwaku to back it up with scripture or quotes from prophets. Think about how Dallin Oaks would respond.

Those goal posts are getting pretty close to the endzone. What happens then?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Hagoth » Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:28 am

...continued.

It really is bizarre that Kwaku was basically bearing his testimony about witchcraft and the occult, and saying that he really believes crystal ball gazers receive true revelation. I hope he continues going down this path. I can't wait to hear about how alien abduction is a priesthood ordinance, or that the Loch Ness Monster is a curelom.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Palerider
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Palerider » Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:52 am

Just This Guy wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:28 pm
To the idea of having to replace one faith with another:

Let's look at that from a different angle. Cars.
Make it much easier.

If you're walking along and you see someone drive into the parking lot with a flat tire that they haven't noticed, you tell them they have a flat tire.

Only an idiot would look at you angrily and say, "Okay wise guy. Now that you've pointed out my flat tire, it's your job to replace it!"
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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jfro18
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by jfro18 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:12 am

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:28 am
...continued.

It really is bizarre that Kwaku was basically bearing his testimony about witchcraft and the occult, and saying that he really believes crystal ball gazers receive true revelation. I hope he continues going down this path. I can't wait to hear about how alien abduction is a priesthood ordinance, or that the Loch Ness Monster is a curelom.
If you watched any of their TITS videos this was the approach he took there... I believe it was called something like "LOL seer stones are cool."

And then he went on about how cool it was that he could use stones to get revelation. When I watched it I felt like I was in a bizarro world, but I then realized at some point you have to embrace it or else people will turn around and never look back.
Palerider wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:52 am
Just This Guy wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:28 pm
To the idea of having to replace one faith with another:

Let's look at that from a different angle. Cars.
Make it much easier.

If you're walking along and you see someone drive into the parking lot with a flat tire that they haven't noticed, you tell them they have a flat tire.

Only an idiot would look at you angrily and say, "Okay wise guy. Now that you've pointed out my flat tire, it's your job to replace it!"
I'm storing this in the memory bank to use in the future - this is a great way to frame it!

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Just This Guy
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Just This Guy » Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:21 am

Palerider wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:52 am
Just This Guy wrote:
Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:28 pm
To the idea of having to replace one faith with another:

Let's look at that from a different angle. Cars.
Make it much easier.

If you're walking along and you see someone drive into the parking lot with a flat tire that they haven't noticed, you tell them they have a flat tire.

Only an idiot would look at you angrily and say, "Okay wise guy. Now that you've pointed out my flat tire, it's your job to replace it!"
And if someone said that "Hey, you have a flat tire. There is a tire shop right here that can fix it for you." The first thing you would think is that they were the ones to drop the nail on the road so they could get more business for the shop.

Either way, someone is coming off as very sleazy.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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moksha
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by moksha » Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:27 am

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:28 am
It really is bizarre that Kwaku was basically bearing his testimony about witchcraft and the occult, and saying that he really believes crystal ball gazers receive true revelation.
Do you think he was being influenced by Dr. Daniel C. Peterson and his dowsing rod?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Hagoth » Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:02 am

moksha wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:27 am
Hagoth wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:28 am
It really is bizarre that Kwaku was basically bearing his testimony about witchcraft and the occult, and saying that he really believes crystal ball gazers receive true revelation.
Do you think he was being influenced by Dr. Daniel C. Peterson and his dowsing rod?
I think that is right up his alley. What most of Kwaku's defenses demonstrate is that he is an apostate. That's what the church really needs to worry about with some of these guys who think they're defending the church. When people like RFM are sticking to the facts all the church can do is inoculate against the truth causing too much shock to the system. But what do they do with the people who branch off in weird directions. Kwaku is more like Snuffer, in that he defies the current church leadership and redirects people in other directions. Unlike Snuffer's back to basics approach, Kwaku goes in the New Age Wu direction, anything goes as long as it works for ME. Kwaku should identify himself on surveys as Spiritual But Not Religious, rather than LDS. Or maybe just Other.

Cardon, on the other hand, just sounds like a MAGA guy debating an election official. Any bets about who had the idea for bullet-proof vests?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Hagoth » Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:14 am

Also...

What's the deal with "woke?" You know you're listening to a Fox News junkie when they angrily spout that word like it actually means something (Cardon Ellis). Can someone help me understand this better? It is obviously a derogative term that refers to people who are concerned about people of color, women, LGBTQ issues, economic inequality, and the survival of the planet. Why is that a such bad thing?

Shouldn't we all be striving to be more awake to the distress of others? Shouldn't self-proclaimed Christians be at the vanguard? Is asleep better? Maybe sleepwalking?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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