Debate night live thread!!!!!!

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Hagoth
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Hagoth » Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:59 pm

I'm driving home now. I'll check in later (or tomorrow morning)
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Red Ryder
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Red Ryder » Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:08 pm

MoPag wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:38 pm
They are actually doing a group hug.
Consig says…”ok, which one of you is aroused?? Ha ha ha !

I only watched the last 2 minutes.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Hagoth
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Hagoth » Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:30 pm

The MMs hired extra security. I was patted down.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Hagoth » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:36 pm

It was pretty interesting being there. I would say the crowd was 75 percent pro-RFM. I saw a couple of familiar faces, one of which was Jim Bennet who seemed to be very friendly and respectful of RFM.

The pat-downs and flack jackets were ridiculous theatrics playing on the Mormon persecution complex and the kind of black-and-white thinking they grew up with watching Mormon propaganda films, where evil, vile people persecuted poor Joseph because they couldn't tolerate the existence of anything good.

I wonder if Midnight Mos have even the remotest idea of how hypocritical they sounded. Especially Kwaku. He kept sing-songing about what a loving, caring person he is in comparison to the sinister RFM, but never missed an opportunity to wallow in as much crap as he could sling. I mean, really, what an a**hole. Cardon's thing was that he couldn't really address most of the issues intelligently so he resorted to testifying and crying, a la Eyring.

It was weird and funny that they thought they were giving scholarly answers that were absolute crap. Kwaku somehow thought he was validating Joseph's conjuring tricks by comparing them to someone of higher social standing who also made up crazy bullsh*t. And all of that talk about preserving the Abrahamic traditions. In my opinion, a whole hell of a lot of damage has been done thanks to those Abrahamic traditions.

RFM pointed out that these guys were not defending the church at all but creating a fantasy version of the church and defending that. I wish he had taken that a bit further. The word for what they were doing is heresy. For Kwaku to say that gay people will get married in the temple and go to the highest level of the celestial kingdom is in direct opposition with everything the church teaches. If he was anyone of consequence that would be enough to get him excommunicated.

They said a lot of stuff that was unintentionally hilarious and they seemed genuinely puzzled when the crowd burst into laughter. Like how the LDS church is not like the evil Catholic church that has a special vault where they hide documents, or how false traditions rely on councils and votes.

I really got annoyed at how they kept accusing RFM's "side" of violence, burning down churches and promoting degenerate acts. I wanted to ask how many churches have actually been burned down, and how many of the vandals were RFM listeners. I also wanted to ask if they have any idea how many Mormon kids have committed suicide, and what percentage of them were LGBTQ (rhetorical questions, of course).

It was really too bad that they wasted so much time jabbing at RFM and trying over and over to turn it into a debate about the debate. And it really got tedious how they wouldn't let go of the idea that RFM doesn't create a new fantasy for people to cling to once they let go of their previous fantasy. The implication is that it's better to believe lies that make undeliverable promises than to deal with big-boy facts which will turn you into, according to them a joyless lump of useless meat.

I went there hoping for a reason to feel better about those guys but they got nasty beyond any expectations. Especially Kwaku, but some of Cardon's grandstanding was pretty unsavory too. I agree with RFM that Brad isn't doing himself any favors being associated with them.

So, a good time was had by all. And there was Subway and pizza.

I'm sure the MMs will be waving a flag of triumph tomorrow and planning some really jaw-dropping horribleness for their podcast. In my opinion, they came off as petty and insipid, and petty insipid people can't walk away from a spanking without having to get the last word over and over and over again.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Hagoth » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:50 pm

Was it just me or did Cardon Ellis really defend ad-hominem attacks as appropriate when dealing with a degenerate like RFM?

Also, I noticed that after a little while the MMs started looking at their phones, like they were being fed lines from somewhere.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by moksha » Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:25 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:36 pm
They said a lot of stuff that was unintentionally hilarious and they seemed genuinely puzzled when the crowd burst into laughter.
The crowd understood the gaslighting and perhaps felt the exhaust as well. The crowd did refrain from laughing at the bulletproof armor worn by the Midnight Mormons, so any outbursts at that point were understandable.
So, a good time was had by all. And there was Subway and pizza.
Shawn made for a good host.

Here is another thread dealing with the debate (up to page 12 was the pre-game warm-up).

https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=154177

Kerry said he would have a YouTube video analysis of the debate tomorrow.
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deacon blues
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by deacon blues » Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:40 am

jfro18 wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:53 pm
I wish i could watch this live... but my wife would not be thrilled, so I'm glad you're giving some updates. It sounds sadly about how you'd expect this to be going!
Thanks for the play by play, MoPag. I got to be there. It was real interesting. It was crowded; the first real tightly packed crowd I've been in since Covid hit. :? The audience was all ages and quite diverse. It seemed like a majority agreed more with RFM than the MM's. Shaun McCraney did OK as a moderator. I felt his questions could have been more specific. He let the debate get a little less controlled at the end, but bless his heart, he brought it together. Unlike the 2020 presidential debates, which made me sick, I felt uplifted after this debate. :D
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Just This Guy
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Just This Guy » Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:19 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:36 pm
It was pretty interesting being there. I would say the crowd was 75 percent pro-RFM.

I think that is an interesting metric of a view of Mormonism. The people who in, theory, would be supporting MM are those who are in the church. Those are the people who either don't know about the messiness of the church, or know of it but are likely in denial and would want to avoid exposure to any more"Anti-Mormon materiel" than they have to.

People who would be interested in this are those familiar with the issues and are likely more sympathetic to RFM's view of things.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Just This Guy
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Just This Guy » Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:28 am

I would like to see a debate like this with a panel of independent judges. Theses judges would be there to sound an alarm anytime any side uses a logical fallacy, gets off topic, uses personal attack, or states factually incorrect information. Each side would get a score for how much BS they use in their debate.

I would like to see people like this get called out on BS in real time.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Hagoth
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Hagoth » Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:58 am

deacon blues wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:40 am
Thanks for the play by play, MoPag. I got to be there.
Oh man, we should have worn tinfoil hats or something to spot each other.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Hagoth » Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:02 am

Just This Guy wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:28 am
Theses judges would be there to sound an alarm anytime any side uses a logical fallacy, gets off topic, uses personal attack, or states factually incorrect information.
The audience would have gone deaf from the endless alarm-sounding when the MMs were speaking.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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jfro18
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by jfro18 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:20 am

Just This Guy wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:28 am
I would like to see a debate like this with a panel of independent judges. Theses judges would be there to sound an alarm anytime any side uses a logical fallacy, gets off topic, uses personal attack, or states factually incorrect information. Each side would get a score for how much BS they use in their debate.

I would like to see people like this get called out on BS in real time.
I've only seen about 15 minutes of it so far, but I saw some of the second half where they started to go off the rails.

The problem with having a judge is that you'd never get more than 30 seconds without interruption and then you'd be accused of bias anyway.

This is the clearest indication as to why leaders refuse to talk to anyone outside of the church in a public setting because it is beyond clear that there are no real answers and the emotional appeals simply do not work to anyone outside of the Mormon bubble.

Both sides will claim victory but the MMs said a bunch of 100% lies in the few minutes I listened about the Book of Abraham, BoM translation, and then the really stupid personal attacks.

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græy
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by græy » Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:40 am

Thanks all for the reviews and comments. I was planning to watch this yesterday while DW was away at a stake women's conference. But our household suffered a small meltdown early yesterday afternoon which left us doing laundry into the wee hours of the morning (its a long story) and I missed it.

I'll have to go find the video and see if I can stomach listening to MMs say stupid stuff.
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blazerb
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by blazerb » Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:14 am

jfro18 wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:20 am
This is the clearest indication as to why leaders refuse to talk to anyone outside of the church in a public setting because it is beyond clear that there are no real answers and the emotional appeals simply do not work to anyone outside of the Mormon bubble.
TBM me craved leaders who would take on the critics. In my gut, I knew what you say is true. There are no good answers.

I think the MMs are on their way out of the church. It might take a while. It might get derailed if they depend on money from the church for their living. But the difference between the church that they want and the CoJCoLDS that actually exists is too big even for Kwaku to ignore. I've watched a couple of their videos. They're hanging out with Kate Kelly and other exmos. They all have been willing to say that the church is not teaching what they believe. Their attitude will not keep them in the church unless they get direct support from church sources in a way that forces them to stay faithful in a Givens sort of way. If we had a pool, I'd bet Brad is the first one out.

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Hagoth
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Hagoth » Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:23 am

If we had a pool, I'd bet Brad is the first one out.
[/quote]
Undoubtedly.

Kwaku would probably just fade away in other directions and stop talking about Mormonism, pro or con.

Cardon will end up in either QAnon or Snufferism.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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MoPag
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by MoPag » Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:31 am

Thanks for the return and report Hagoth and Deacon Blues! I can't believe they patted you down. OMG!! MMs :roll:
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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wtfluff
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by wtfluff » Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:43 pm

I just watched the "re-run."

While not a complete train-wreck, It did end up being quite a bit like I expected.

The MM's constant diatribe about how evil the world/secularism is, and how "Judeo-Christian Values" will fix everything drives me nuts. How many thousands of years have the 'Judeo-Christians' had to "fix" the evil world? And yet, here we are.

I kinda wish I had that time back, but MORmONism is the train-wreck that I am completely incapable of looking away from, and enjoying a mild barley drink while watching baby apologists spew stupidity wasn't a complete waste of time; I guess... :roll:
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stuck
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by stuck » Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:44 pm

MoPag wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:31 am
Thanks for the return and report Hagoth and Deacon Blues! I can't believe they patted you down. OMG!! MMs :roll:
Ditto and thanks for the play by play Mopag. It's nice to have you guys do this for some who can't attend.

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moksha
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by moksha » Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:16 pm

stuck wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:44 pm
MoPag wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:31 am
Thanks for the return and report Hagoth and Deacon Blues! I can't believe they patted you down. OMG!! MMs :roll:
Ditto and thanks for the play by play Mopag. It's nice to have you guys do this for some who can't attend.
I want to say ditto on that appreciation to MoPag and attendees Hagoth and Deacon Blues.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Red Ryder
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Re: Debate night live thread!!!!!!

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:24 am

It felt a lot like this:

Image
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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