Dehlin Alternate Reality

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moksha
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Dehlin Alternate Reality

Post by moksha » Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:27 am

I was listening to the latest Mormon Stories podcast when I heard John Dehlin describe to his guest that NOM no longer exists. It suddenly dawned on me that Mormon Stories was being posted to an alternate universe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9JFAETCoak
Around the hour 2:49 point.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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jfro18
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Re: Dehlin Alternate Reality

Post by jfro18 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:17 am

I feel like NOM exists from people I've talked to, but it seems to get pushed out just like the 'middle' of politics has been squeezed out in recent years as things have escalated.

If you look at Twitter, people who advocate for a middle way/NOM approach (maybe I'm using NOM in a different way here) are often slammed by the DezNat people along with those who are angry at the church... it seems like a road you can't really take publicly but we all know a lot of people are doing it to get by when they lose literal belief but can't actually leave.

I'll have to listen to Dehlin's comments - I've heard him say similar things before and it makes me think the online conversations have contributed to that mindset, but I tend to think there are quite a lot of people in that situation.

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wtfluff
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Re: Dehlin Alternate Reality

Post by wtfluff » Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:02 am

NOM, Midle Way, PIMO... Whatever you want to call "it," it will always exist.

If you ask my fluffy brain, I think that the majority of folks sitting in the pews every Sunday are following some sort of "middle way." You do what you feel you gotta do to keep families from imploding and make life livable.

Whether or not the "Middle Way" is sustainable is a different subject. Once Toto pulls back the curtain, it becomes a quite hard for many to keep believing in the Wizard. Some people might be able to sustain that cognitive dissonance for a lifetime. Others who still retain some amount of rational thinking won't be able to stay. It's seems that it's quite hard for some people to completely ignore reality and "just believe."
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Hagoth
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Re: Dehlin Alternate Reality

Post by Hagoth » Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:31 am

Usually when I hear someone talking about NOMs they use it as a derogatory term for either "liberal Mormons" who are trying to steer the church away from the political Right, or people who have maintained just enough belief to remain in the church and continue to be somehow spiritually and emotionally fulfilled by it. I think both groups are very small minorities.

When we talk about NOMs we mean people who are still attached to the church because they are either painfully nailed to it, or who continue to have (probably unhealthy) fascination with it from an outside perspective.

John Dehlin will be speaking at the Oasis meeting next week. Unfortunately I'll be out of town. Otherwise I would love to talk to him about the genuine existence of us NNOMs - New New Order Mormons, and to inform him that rumors of our death are greatly exaggerated.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Red Ryder
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Re: Dehlin Alternate Reality

Post by Red Ryder » Sun Nov 28, 2021 9:18 am

I’ve struggled with this a bit. For years I have been an unbeliever but still feel extremely stuck attached to Mormonism primarily through my marriage and both of our families. I’d leave yesterday if it was that simple.

NOM = Never Over Mormonism
NOM = not angry enough for exmo, don’t care enough to worry about silly labels.
NOM = Not Over Mormonism (yet) Nommie

Who cares what John Dehlin thinks.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

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Palerider
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Re: Dehlin Alternate Reality

Post by Palerider » Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:23 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:31 am
.....or who continue to have (probably unhealthy) fascination with it from an outside perspective.
I think this might be me. But I'm hoping it's not TOO unhealthy. I think it's more of that phenomenon of seeing a trainwreck and yet somehow not being able to turn away.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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blazerb
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Re: Dehlin Alternate Reality

Post by blazerb » Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:59 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:31 am
Usually when I hear someone talking about NOMs they use it as a derogatory term for either "liberal Mormons" who are trying to steer the church away from the political Right, or people who have maintained just enough belief to remain in the church and continue to be somehow spiritually and emotionally fulfilled by it. I think both groups are very small minorities.

When we talk about NOMs we mean people who are still attached to the church because they are either painfully nailed to it, or who continue to have (probably unhealthy) fascination with it from an outside perspective.

John Dehlin will be speaking at the Oasis meeting next week. Unfortunately I'll be out of town. Otherwise I would love to talk to him about the genuine existence of us NNOMs - New New Order Mormons, and to inform him that rumors of our death are greatly exaggerated.
So, do we disagree with Dehlin? When I first sought out NOM, I was very like someone in your first paragraph. I came to realize that the narrative that I had taught and been taught could not be correct. I was desperately looking for some way to maintain my belief. Others were looking for that 3rd way that would make the church a healthy place.

The NNOMs are quite different. In that sense, Dehlin is right. The 3rd way does not exist for most of us. It might exist for the few that the leaders need to maintain the appearance of healthy religion to the world. However, Holland has shown that leaders want to keep them under control with his talks to the Maxwell Institute and the more recent berating he gave the faculty at BYU.

I'm in the process of removing my painful nails and moving into unhealthy fascination. I don't even know what healthy might feel like.

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2bizE
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Re: Dehlin Alternate Reality

Post by 2bizE » Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:20 pm

I think NOMs exist, but it certainly depends on each worldview. Dehlin seems to have developed a black and white world view. Either for or against. I don’t believe the church is true. I would separate from it immediately if I thought I could without destroying family stability. I just done think it is worth it at the moment, but am busy sowing seeds so when the time comes I will be ready. Is there a middle way? Sure. You just have to be willing to make up your own way. The church does not provide a middle way. It often feels like losing through the jungle with a machete trying to make a path, while at the same time avoiding the musket fire.
~2bizE

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alas
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Re: Dehlin Alternate Reality

Post by alas » Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:50 pm

Dehlin used to seem to come to NOM every time we talked about him and I figured he had one of those Apps that tells you when your name is mentioned. Obviously he doesn’t watch his App any more, cause we still talk about him more than he ever deserved to be talked about.

Anyway, I must be in that category of NOMs who have an unhealthy fascination with Mormonism because I gave up on giving up NOM. I tried and when I went into withdrawal I decided that I like my addictions. But then, I am still painfully nailed to the church, seeing as my hunnybunny still pays tithing in both our names, and drags my butt to every ward social. Christmas social coming up soon. He also thinks I need a blow by blow rundown of the talks and lessons. I got a break from that today because he talked to a neighbor for un update on the guy who used to live between our two houses, and we spent an hour discussing our friend and neighbor.

Church doesn’t make me as crazy as it used to, but I still have nightmares about yelling at old, fat, bald seminary teachers because they taught us stupid church stuff when what we needed was life skills in order to survive our current and future families. But the “life skills” they thought we needed was how to say no to drinking when a friend asked us to have a drink and missionary prep. What we needed was how to avoid date rape and pregnancy preparation.

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moksha
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Re: Dehlin Alternate Reality

Post by moksha » Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:36 pm

2bizE wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:20 pm
I think NOMs exist, but it certainly depends on each worldview.
The simple fact that we are posting on the message board he says no longer exists suggests either he is wrong or we are figments of imagination.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: Dehlin Alternate Reality

Post by Hagoth » Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:29 am

moksha wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:36 pm
2bizE wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:20 pm
I think NOMs exist, but it certainly depends on each worldview.
The simple fact that we are posting on the message board he says no longer exists suggests either he is wrong or we are figments of imagination.
NOMs are like LDS prophets. They exist but they're nothing like what everybody says they are.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Palerider
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Re: Dehlin Alternate Reality

Post by Palerider » Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:30 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:29 am
moksha wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:36 pm
2bizE wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:20 pm
I think NOMs exist, but it certainly depends on each worldview.
The simple fact that we are posting on the message board he says no longer exists suggests either he is wrong or we are figments of imagination.
NOMs are like LDS prophets. They exist but their nothing like what everybody says they are.
:D
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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stealthbishop
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Re: Dehlin Alternate Reality

Post by stealthbishop » Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:46 am

We're not as flashy as MS or Sunstone or Mormon Discussions but we have our place. I'm glad I'm back. I always loved this place.
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

-Depeche Mode

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MoPag
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Re: Dehlin Alternate Reality

Post by MoPag » Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:00 pm

stealthbishop wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:46 am
We're not as flashy as MS or Sunstone or Mormon Discussions but we have our place. I'm glad I'm back. I always loved this place.
Amen! We totally kick a$$!
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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moksha
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Re: Dehlin Alternate Reality

Post by moksha » Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:16 pm

Icing to the NOM goalpost: Utah is going to the Rosebowl.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Not Buying It
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Re: Dehlin Alternate Reality

Post by Not Buying It » Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:52 am

Bah. John Dehlin has played a major role in educating a lot of people about aspects of the Church they may not have heard before, and I have to give him credit for that. But he's also kind of full of himself. And he has done some questionable things over the years that make me wonder about his judgment (outing F. Enzio Busche as Grant Palmer's "mystery GA" was particularly egregious - there was no real reason for him to do that other than for attention. Outing a closet doubter was not his place, because even if they are dead they still have family who have to deal with the repercussions in the world of Mormonism. It was a creepy thing to do). Dehlin loves attention, and its hard not to think it's gone to his head a little.

We're still here. And while there aren't as many posters here as there once was, Thayne's work lives on. But in a sense, I also agree with Dehlin. We've talked about this before, NOM was once a place where people came who knew the Church isn't what it claims to be but wanted to still be engaged and make it work for them. I once thought this place isn't like that anymore because we had run off anyone who thought that way, but I've since decided that it was the Church itself that has made the "middle way" untenable. It wasn't that those of us who don't have much nice to say about the Church here on NOM that made people like that feel unwelcome here I don't think - I think the Church itself pushed people away from a "middle way" approach, and pushed them more in the direction of "I can't stand this religion" by being so rigid, unyielding, and critical of "doubters" and "lazy learners". The Church made the "middle way" untenable, not NOM.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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stealthbishop
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Re: Dehlin Alternate Reality

Post by stealthbishop » Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:14 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:52 am
We've talked about this before, NOM was once a place where people came who knew the Church isn't what it claims to be but wanted to still be engaged and make it work for them. I once thought this place isn't like that anymore because we had run off anyone who thought that way, but I've since decided that it was the Church itself that has made the "middle way" untenable. It wasn't that those of us who don't have much nice to say about the Church here on NOM that made people like that feel unwelcome here I don't think - I think the Church itself pushed people away from a "middle way" approach, and pushed them more in the direction of "I can't stand this religion" by being so rigid, unyielding, and critical of "doubters" and "lazy learners". The Church made the "middle way" untenable, not NOM.
This is definitely the case for DW. She talks about this all the time now. She doesn't feel like she can do middle way. The church does not make it easy for the vast majority of people going through faith crisis/transition. They continue to double down on high demand/all in. They do really shoot themselves in the foot constantly and more and more will continue to disengage and also have a very negative view of the church as a result.
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

-Depeche Mode

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alas
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Re: Dehlin Alternate Reality

Post by alas » Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:27 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:52 am
Bah. John Dehlin has played a major role in educating a lot of people about aspects of the Church they may not have heard before, and I have to give him credit for that. But he's also kind of full of himself. And he has done some questionable things over the years that make me wonder about his judgment (outing F. Enzio Busche as Grant Palmer's "mystery GA" was particularly egregious - there was no real reason for him to do that other than for attention. Outing a closet doubter was not his place, because even if they are dead they still have family who have to deal with the repercussions in the world of Mormonism. It was a creepy thing to do). Dehlin loves attention, and its hard not to think it's gone to his head a little.

We're still here. And while there aren't as many posters here as there once was, Thayne's work lives on. But in a sense, I also agree with Dehlin. We've talked about this before, NOM was once a place where people came who knew the Church isn't what it claims to be but wanted to still be engaged and make it work for them. I once thought this place isn't like that anymore because we had run off anyone who thought that way, but I've since decided that it was the Church itself that has made the "middle way" untenable. It wasn't that those of us who don't have much nice to say about the Church here on NOM that made people like that feel unwelcome here I don't think - I think the Church itself pushed people away from a "middle way" approach, and pushed them more in the direction of "I can't stand this religion" by being so rigid, unyielding, and critical of "doubters" and "lazy learners". The Church made the "middle way" untenable, not NOM.
About John being a bit full of himself and doing some questionable things. There are several more questionable things that could go on the list.

And about the church destroying the middle way, I agree. From the first time I decided that Joseph Smith wrote the BOM out of his own head, to the time I finally went inactive was about 30 years. All that time, I was really NOM before NOM existed. Then I church got more and more toxic for doubters, for women, for gays, and especially in my case it became more toxic for anyone with trust issues, self doubt, perfectionism, and the dozens of side effects of growing up with abuse. The church became toxic, abusive, and poisonous. I didn’t change and neither did my lack of testimony. The church changed.

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Just This Guy
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Re: Dehlin Alternate Reality

Post by Just This Guy » Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:50 am

alas wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:50 pm
Dehlin used to seem to come to NOM every time we talked about him and I figured he had one of those Apps that tells you when your name is mentioned. Obviously he doesn’t watch his App any more, cause we still talk about him more than he ever deserved to be talked about.
Has John ever been to this new board? It is possible that once the original board when down, he ever found about the resurrection and the boards new, more glorious form.

moksha wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:27 am
I was listening to the latest Mormon Stories podcast when I heard John Dehlin describe to his guest that NOM no longer exists.
In a way he is right. If you consider a NOM to be a believer that has a very nuanced, cafiteria style of Mormonism, then they have been slowly been removed from the church. It can be that their continued investigation to the church finally lead them out, or the church forced them out one way or another.

Just take a look at us here. This board started as a way for questioning members to explore things. It evolved into a place where non-believers get support to still live in the church, to today where most people here are Ex-mos to one level or another. We have many people here who still have faith in the devine, but I don't know of any one here that actually believes Mormonism is what it claims to be.

The middle way is a very difficult road to take, and TSCC has done a effective job at forcing people off that road.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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moksha
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Re: Dehlin Alternate Reality

Post by moksha » Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:44 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:50 am
moksha wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:27 am
I was listening to the latest Mormon Stories podcast when I heard John Dehlin describe to his guest that NOM no longer exists.
In a way he is right. If you consider a NOM to be a believer that has a very nuanced, cafiteria style of Mormonism, then they have been slowly been removed from the church.
I really need to write more precisely. Dehlin was talking about the NOM message board. He was saying it no longer exists, as in it went away and never came back.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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