Fight The New Drug

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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Hagoth
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Hagoth » Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:50 am

Fight the new drug:
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“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Cnsl1
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Cnsl1 » Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:10 am

People toss around the word "addiction" a little haphazardly, especially in the church.

Experience changes the brain, we know that. Reading this will change your brain.
Exercise will change your brain. Drug use changes your brain and some drugs can change it a little more dramatically. Take enough and some drugs can lead to physical dependence and some to psychological dependence. But porn? No good empirical evidence that it effects your brain like drugs do. The chemistry of porn is limited to what you're carrying around already. Can it affect you? Of course. Is it addictive? Can be, but the vast majority of porn users, especially within the church, would not meet the criteria for addiction.

I once heard a stake pres say from the pulpit in a priesthood meeting that if you've looked at porn you're an adulterer and need to have your spouse or mother keep the computer locked up from you. His reasoning was that if you looked upon a woman to lust after her, you've committed adultery in your heart, which is the same as if you did it for real. Okaaay....

In a different priesthood meeting, I heard a brother ask how to know when something was "inappropriate" to do. A stake pres counselor answered that anything, absolutely anything that stimulated sexual arousal was wrong to do (unless with wife of course). He said the litmus test was arousal. I countered with the idea that arousal might not be the best litmus for appropriate behavior, as I could kiss old Sister Magillicuty smack on the lips and feel no arousal, but it would still not be nice, and one of the 16 year old priests might get aroused by a stiff breeze, but we wouldn't suggest they stay in their rooms on windy days. Maybe whether or not something is "inappropriate" should be based more on societal and cultural mores and a desire for nonmalfeasance. Just a thought.

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Hagoth
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Hagoth » Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:21 am

Cnsl1 wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:10 am
People toss around the word "addiction" a little haphazardly, especially in the church.
Kind of like "translate," "know," "revelation," "unpaid clergy..."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Red Ryder
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Red Ryder » Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:22 pm

Does anyone know if Fight the New Drug or any of their founders make money off their anti porn product?
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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Jeffret
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Jeffret » Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:35 pm

According to their 2019 990, some of them make some money, though other than the executive director it's not a big money-maker.
Natale McAneney (Executive Directory) : $113,077
Clay Olsen (President / Co-Founder) : $18,700
JASON CARROLL (Board member) : $19,800

They spent about $784,000 on other employees and $300,000 on advertising / promotion.

Add up office costs, travel, and business expenses and that pretty much covers their expenses.

Of course they don't really do much. They host a website and do social media. When conditions permit they run around and do speaking engagements.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Bonfire
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Bonfire » Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:31 pm

I am genuinely surprised at the responses in this thread. None of what I have said nor the message of Fight The New Drug has been refuted in any way, rather arguments about religious addiction and tithing addiction and whether or not the leaders of a moral and beneficial campaign receive compensation for their efforts. Pornography is a distraction and a lethal blow to many happy relationships and families.

For example I had a partner who indulged in porn for a while and later moved on to online dating while we were engaged to be married and eventually decided to try polyamory and swinging at parties all while I stood helplessly by her, supporting her freedom and individual right to choose because of my love for her. She went from graduating college to working a local food handling job to not working at all so she could stay home and be on the computer all day and indulge in dating messages and sexually gratifying activities. Breaking up with her was the most difficult choice I had to make and to this day I wonder what might have been had The New Drug not come between our love.

My hope in sharing this message is to curb the influence of pornography that you may be set free from women and men seeking compensation and power over one another in the explicit sharing of the temporary vanity of their fragile vessels.

There is one God. Worship not the creation, but the creator.
“Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God; “For, behold, the Lord your Redeemer suffered death in the flesh; wherefore he suffered the pain of all men, that all men might repent and come unto him” (D&C 18:10–11).

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Hagoth
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Hagoth » Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:57 pm

Bonfire wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:31 pm
For example I had a partner who indulged in porn for a while and later moved on to online dating while we were engaged to be married and eventually decided to try polyamory and swinging at parties all while I stood helplessly by her, supporting her freedom and individual right to choose because of my love for her. She went from graduating college to working a local food handling job to not working at all so she could stay home and be on the computer all day and indulge in dating messages and sexually gratifying activities. Breaking up with her was the most difficult choice I had to make and to this day I wonder what might have been had The New Drug not come between our love.
That's really too bad, Bonfire. Why do you blame porn, rather than dating apps? It sounds to me like her problem was more about non-commitment than porn addiction. From your description the porn was not as attractive to her, so she found another outlet.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Jeffret
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Jeffret » Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:08 pm

Hey, sorry about your terrible experience and the difficult relationship you had to deal with. That's rough.

However, it's highly unlikely that porn was the singular cause of your problems or that it is destructive to all viewers or relationships.

It's notoriously hard to get good numbers, but a very high percentage of adults have viewed or even view porn on some semi-regular basis. One study that attempted to contrast porn viewers vs. non-viewers was abandoned because they couldn't find anyone to put into the latter category. Men view it more than women, but the numbers for women are a lot higher than a lot of people would imagine. In spite of that, though, the number of people who are actually negatively impacted is extremely low. Some of the better studies suggest 5% of porn viewers have a negative impact, but other evidence suggests that may overstate the case.

The biggest problems actually are caused by people such as FtND, who make porn into an obsession. They create a negative feedback cycle and compound the behavior, leading to notably higher levels of negative impacts.

Porn makes for a nice scapegoat, but it's rarely the real or biggest problem.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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moksha
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by moksha » Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:09 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:23 am
What's there something a while back that the organization got a lot of their funding through the More Good Foundation? A backchannel for LDinc. to support various political causes while they officially keep their hands clean.

https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php? ... type=CMSID
https://medium.com/@HARLOT/fight-the-ne ... 0c935bd4f3
Thank you for alerting us to this new LDS scam. States Rights, Religious Freedom, and Multi-level Marketing!!!
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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stealthbishop
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by stealthbishop » Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:00 am

Sorry, FTND is not based on hard-science. It does not have any randomized double-blind controlled studies in independent peer reviewed journals. It's pseudo-science and probably bad pseudo-science at best. Does porn have negative consequences? Yes. Are there moral and ethical issues about porn? Yes. But it is not a drug. It is not a public health crisis. FTND is a money grab based on the obsession the LDS church has with porn and the toxic shaming around it. I would argue that the toxic shaming is just as harmful or more harmful than the porn itself sometimes. I really am not surprised by the negative reaction here to the OP. I think NOM is probably the wrong place to evangelize FTND. You and they are better off promoting on the orthodox boards where LDS folks are more vulnerable to this snake oil. I am glad that it helped you and I am sorry that you have been hurt. Unfortunately this unscientific approach and the addiction-model with regards to porn is extremely damaging to so many LDS (and non-LDS) people. There are much better and more evidenced-based approaches.

For LDS people or NOM folks in relationships where porn may be an issue and want a more evidence-based ethical approach, I would recommend Daniel Burgess:

https://www.danielaburgess.com/



I would also recommend anyone from:
https://www.symmetrysols.com/

Or anyone who is a member of the Mormon Mental Health Association:
https://mormonmentalhealthassoc.org/find-a-provider/
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

-Depeche Mode

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alas
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by alas » Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:42 am

If we need evidence that porn is NOT harmful, here’s one: Back in the “good old days” when porn was illegal in the US (before internet when it could actually sort of be controlled) but legal in some European countries, they did comparisons in the number of rapes. Guess what? Rape is highest in countries where porn is illegal. The psychologists being American and as prudish as average Americans were shocked out of their ivory towers. They finally decided that it was the attitude that the female body is too tempting to resist and should be hidden and illegal to even look at pictures that encourages rape culture. It was the SHAME about porn that was harmful, not the porn. Just like good ol’ Freud tried to tell us, shame is very harmful. Oh, also in such countries they did things like communal steam rooms where everyone was naked.

So, all of the “porn is dangerous” people can put that in their pipe and smoke it. It is the shame about porn that is harmful, not the porn itself. And yeah, spoken by someone who has three degrees in the mental health field.

With the exception of slasher films, violent porn and kiddy porn. THOSE have been shown to worsen the people who find them attractive to begin with. But even child molesters do not always start with porn and all of them will tell you that the desire was there before they ever found their first kiddy porn. And there are some guys who love the kiddy porn that say it keeps them away from live kids. Let me repeat that for slow people, kiddy porn keeps some guys away from real children. So, once again, is it the porn that is a problem? Well, yes, because in order to film the kiddy porn you have to abuse a real child.

And don’t get me started on slasher films. There is good evidence that when teen boys see the slasher film where the guy with the chain saw attacks the naked sexy girl in the shower, it teaches them to associate sex and violence and to be turned on by violence. So slasher films, which the church only has a slight problem with are the real danger.

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stealthbishop
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by stealthbishop » Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:40 am

alas wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:42 am
If we need evidence that porn is NOT harmful, here’s one: Back in the “good old days” when porn was illegal in the US (before internet when it could actually sort of be controlled) but legal in some European countries, they did comparisons in the number of rapes. Guess what? Rape is highest in countries where porn is illegal. The psychologists being American and as prudish as average Americans were shocked out of their ivory towers. They finally decided that it was the attitude that the female body is too tempting to resist and should be hidden and illegal to even look at pictures that encourages rape culture. It was the SHAME about porn that was harmful, not the porn. Just like good ol’ Freud tried to tell us, shame is very harmful. Oh, also in such countries they did things like communal steam rooms where everyone was naked.

So, all of the “porn is dangerous” people can put that in their pipe and smoke it. It is the shame about porn that is harmful, not the porn itself. And yeah, spoken by someone who has three degrees in the mental health field.

With the exception of slasher films, violent porn and kiddy porn. THOSE have been shown to worsen the people who find them attractive to begin with. But even child molesters do not always start with porn and all of them will tell you that the desire was there before they ever found their first kiddy porn. And there are some guys who love the kiddy porn that say it keeps them away from live kids. Let me repeat that for slow people, kiddy porn keeps some guys away from real children. So, once again, is it the porn that is a problem? Well, yes, because in order to film the kiddy porn you have to abuse a real child.

And don’t get me started on slasher films. There is good evidence that when teen boys see the slasher film where the guy with the chain saw attacks the naked sexy girl in the shower, it teaches them to associate sex and violence and to be turned on by violence. So slasher films, which the church only has a slight problem with are the real danger.
^THIS^
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

-Depeche Mode

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Linked
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Linked » Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:59 am

I am not sure I can add anything here, but here goes.
Bonfire wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:31 pm
I am genuinely surprised at the responses in this thread.
Bonfire, you've made claims that rely on a bunch of assumptions that aren't common with many here. A lot of those assumptions have hurt people here or appear to hurt people generally. From my reading, some of those assumptions are:

- An intervening God exists
- God cares about human sexuality
- Human sexuality outside of a committed relationship is objectively bad
- Drugs are bad
- Pornography is a drug which is addictive and ruins lives at a high rate
- Fight the New Drug has an effective treatment for pornography that both reduces pornography damage and doesn't cause additional damage

I think a good-faith discussion of any of these points would be well received here, but assuming their truth is problematic for many. Because of that, your call to action based on these points resulted in pushback rather than appreciation.

Also, your tone leaves little room for other beliefs. I personally don't agree with any of these points, so statements like "Give reverence to God in all things and for all creation." or "There is one God. Worship not the creation, but the creator." are a bit offensive because there is no room in them for me and my worldview, which puts me on the defensive.

This forum has a huge variety of worldviews which is why it is special, but assuming past each others views makes it difficult to have a worthwhile discussion. Are you interested in a discussion?
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

dogbite
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by dogbite » Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:49 pm

My posts were not to refute your points, but to show your post's subjective and non-supported points. You're welcome to your worldview, but don't assume we share it or agree with the premises your view is based on.

To discuss these kinds of topics effectively with those who don't share your view, you need to present them from an evidence based perspective, not your opinion based perspective.

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Angel
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Angel » Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:47 pm

Bonfire wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:31 pm

My hope in sharing this message is to curb the influence of pornography
Purity modesty culture creates embarrassment and unhealthy infatuation with the "forbidden". In my experience, my children ended up being abused by a high-ranking brother in the church - their confession letter after they were convicted told me their problems were a result of the church's purity culture. No one talks about it, everyone sweeps it under the rug, natural impulses are not dealt with in healthy manner.

Why is there such a high instance of adulty, child molesters, and porn use within religious organizations? While others deal with it in a healthy manner? Simple - purity culture.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Mormorrisey » Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:52 pm

We've had these discussions before over the years on NOM, and I think the FTND approach is as problematic as pornography is. I'm an old second-wave feminist thinker on the issue, so my objections to pornography is more about the objectification of women in the industry, and the fact that most pornography is solely for the male gaze. I know from what I've read there is more "ethical" porn out there, but I'm still not convinced that it's a good thing. Frankly, if most of your sex education is taken from pornography, you're in big trouble when it comes to intimacy. There is no real understanding, for example, on how a woman's body works, and how women react differently to sexual stimuli in pornography. Pornography is just a show - it's not REAL. It does not portray accurately human sexuality at all, with all its simultaneous glory and warts. So if you have a young Mormon lad who thinks that sex is performed like a porn star, they are in for a very rude awakening when it comes to intimacy in their relationships. And I'm sure it DOES cause problems in marriages, I've seen it myself. But to me, it's not the pornography, but lack of education, communication and an understanding of basic human sexuality that is the culprit, not the pornography itself. And that simply hammers home the shame cycle of the pornography watcher, and that point is always brought to the forefront by the church and groups like FTND. And neither the church or FTND is going to help provide real sex education to help clarify why pornography is a problem, either. They just talk in vague metaphors, slam pornography as the problem, and that's that.

So FTND (and the church for that matter) just comes down on the shame side, blames pornography for every little problem that exists in human sexuality, and its pseudo-science gobbledygook just muddies the waters of what REAL addiction is. Lookit, I'm a red blooded male, and of course I looked at porn over the years - it was very hard to find pre-internet, but it's a lot easier now. You know what "fixed" the "problem"? Once I got over the shame of it. Recognized it for what it was, that pornography was not real, it was a show, not a real depiction of what sex is, and I simply moved on. I didn't need to "go to war" with pornography, didn't need to "fight the new drug," didn't need to recognize that I was desiring other women and it would lead to me being "unfaithful," or any of that nonsense. I just recognized it for what it was, that as I got older and wiser I'd rather be intimate with Sis M, within the confines of a loving, committed relationship than dabble in the make-believe world of pornography, an industry that tended to exploit women. Pretty simple. I wasn't addicted, it wasn't a "new drug," and watching porn was just kind of ridiculous when you think about it long enough.

So while I'm not a huge fan of pornography, FTND and its adherents are barking up the wrong tree on how to fix the problem. REAL sex education, communication, and a coherent understanding of human sexual response and biology is the answer, not going to war on pornography and driving the shame cycle even further.

I feel sorry for your experiences, Bonfire, but I'm not convinced the culprit is pornography.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Mormorrisey » Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:54 pm

Angel wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:47 pm
Bonfire wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:31 pm

My hope in sharing this message is to curb the influence of pornography
Purity modesty culture creates embarrassment and unhealthy infatuation with the "forbidden". In my experience, my children ended up being abused by a high-ranking brother in the church - their confession letter after they were convicted told me their problems were a result of the church's purity culture. No one talks about it, everyone sweeps it under the rug, natural impulses are not dealt with in healthy manner.

Why is there such a high instance of adulty, child molesters, and porn use within religious organizations? While others deal with it in a healthy manner? Simple - purity culture.
And after reading this, this is why FTND and the church don't provide adequate sex education. Purity culture. You are bang on, Angel.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Red Ryder
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:08 pm

I’ve read many stories and examples of people that claim porn enhanced there marriage.

Perhaps moderation in all things?

Monday… NFL Monday night football
Tuesday … the bachelor
Wed… general conference re-runs
Thursday - CSI
Friday… porn
Saturday… Gilligan’s island
Sunday… Disney
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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wtfluff
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by wtfluff » Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:10 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:08 pm
Perhaps moderation in all things?

Monday… NFL Monday night football
Tuesday … the bachelor
Wed… general conference re-runs
Thursday - CSI
Friday… porn
Saturday… Gilligan’s island
Sunday… Disney
Hold on. Where is "Temple Date Nite" on your list? :twisted:

Every day on your list could be a version of porn... To someone. (Including my addition.)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

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Bonfire
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Re: Fight The New Drug

Post by Bonfire » Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:27 am

If a medicine exists that placates bad behavior by substitute without expiration then there is no healing, only supression.

The suggestion that pornography keeps child molestors from abuse and rapists from assault would require that at some point these would cease their need for such a prescription, yet that is not the case.

In contrast cannabis is a medicine that can replace opiates yet does not require consistent reuptake and is therefore a healing intervention.

Furthermore supporting men and women and children who participate in producing pornography creates an industry that encourages human trafficking, disintegrates sexual intimacy, and inspires others to cease productivity for a chance to profit from the gratification of their bodies.

For the reason of repeated consumption and withdrawal that contributes to crime and sexual distortion and sloth, pornography does not heal, is not medicine, and cannot be considered therapeutic.
“Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God; “For, behold, the Lord your Redeemer suffered death in the flesh; wherefore he suffered the pain of all men, that all men might repent and come unto him” (D&C 18:10–11).

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