NOM

Let me describe my current existential dread. It has nothing to do with death, but belonging.

I'm terrified. I'm afraid that everywhere I go, there will be a majority of people who think that something about how I think or act - which I put a hell of a lot of deep thought into - is not good enough. I'm afraid that they will employ the same tactics that the church does - apologetics, thought-stopping cliches, social pressure, verbal traps - to try to fit me into their box. And I'll fail to fit into the box and always be less than.

I'm terrified it'll always happen because this amazing brain of mine is wired so that other people's attitudes don't influence mine very much. I will always find something of merit in the attitudes of the enemy. I won't give myself wholly to any philosophy. Sometimes I'll think and act like an enemy.

I don't have the social aptitude to pretend to be one of the good guys all the time. It's too draining. That's why I stopped going to church.

I will say what I think, and I will be punished for it.

And so, stealthbishop, when you called me "fragile," I was triggered. Not because of any insecurities arising from privilege, but because I've identified being labeled fragile as a verbal trap. It's an indicator to me that I could be punished for what I think.

And I was. Thanks for proving the insecure part of my brain right. It's going to take days to work through it.

I'm sick of this. I'm tired of humanity and how we treat ideas like battlefields. I'm tired of not being able to fit in anywhere at all.

I'm just asking.... wondering I guess. Looking for clarification.

Is it the "rejection" that you fear the most? Or is it that even though you feel your opinion or ideas are correct from your perspective, that you feel others might be unfairly trying to manipulate you into behaving the way they want you to. Using unethical tactics to stereotype you. And you hate that.

It places you in conflict with others when you would rather have healthy relationships.

Palerider wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:33 am

I'm just asking.... wondering I guess. Looking for clarification.

Is it the "rejection" that you fear the most? Or is it that even though you feel your opinion or ideas are correct from your perspective, that you feel others might be unfairly trying to manipulate you into behaving the way they want you to. Using unethical tactics to stereotype you. And you hate that.

It places you in conflict with others when you would rather have healthy relationships.

It's both.

I've always been a little more sensitive to rejection than most people, and leaving the church and the subsequent mental health fallout made that 5 times worse.

I really can't stand conflict. I don't like how I think and act when I feel threatened, and I don't like what feeling threatened does to other people's behavior, either. But I think some amount of disagreement is healthy, necessary, and occasionally refreshing.

You're spot-on about manipulation. I've gotten very sensitive to that, too. I need to be very, very clear here: most of the time, people don't know they're doing it. They're just doing what has worked in the past.

Reuben wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 26, 2022 3:33 am

I really can't stand conflict. I don't like how I think and act when I feel threatened, and I don't like what feeling threatened does to other people's behavior, either. But I think some amount of disagreement is healthy, necessary, and occasionally refreshing.

You set yourself up for depression if you are always trying to please other people.

As Shakespeare said, "Be true to yourself and your school" (or was that the Beach Boys?).

Hey, I am sorry for coming across so strong. I wondered if I should delete it after writing it because we never really know how sensitive others are. I often don’t know how to say that men and women have some psychological and behavioral differences, without (1) it sounding like too much psychobabble, (2) sounding too angry, (3) sounding like a dumb bunch of sexist generalizations (4) offending feminists. (5) offending men.

I don’t and never did think “fragile” would apply to you. Offended that sometimes feminists sound “man hating” for sure, yes. And trying to fight back, rather than trying to understand. Think about that for a minute. You came across as trying to fight back rather than willing to listen. So, hey, don’t fight back, but stop and listen when you find yourself offended at man hating feminists. What you will hear is a lot of hurt under the anger.

If I didn’t respect you, I would have ignored you. When I do not respect how a man thinks, I just roll my eyes and don’t waste my time chewing him out. (How many letters do you think I waste writing to Trump and chewing him out?) But, you are one of my NOMies and I respect you enough that I HOPE when we disagree that the deeper respect shows, but I know I need to verbalize much more often that only argue with the people I really like and respect. So, getting my dander up means I like you and think that you think logically enough and have other qualities I respect.

And also, thanks for coming back and saying something, that shows resilience, and a willingness to show your own vulnerability, another couple of great qualities.

In what gets called the “battle of the sexes” women often forget how vulnerable men can be. Especially the good sensitive ones. We see how often we as women get hurt by the prejudice, the inequities of society, the cat calls and sexual harassment, and we start feeling like all men are powerful ogres. But most men are just somebody’s sweet kid brother, and most men were once small boys who loved their mama and would do anything to make her happy and are most terrified of her anger.

I wish you could know that your opinion and experience matter and what other people think of you matters SO much less than what *you* think of *you*. Keep working on knowing that your opinion of you is the only correct opinion of you.

Anna

Hey Reuben, I'm trying to remember a poem about how smart people are unsure of themselves and foolish people are often certain about things they really don't understand. That could describe a NOM mind. I think I'm like you. My TBM wife tells me I overthink things. Well, we who overthink things probably have a better understanding of reality than those who are certain about things. This is a generalization- it may be helpful.

I might add, borrowing from Steve Covey, that some people don't try to understand others because they're working too hard to make others understand them. Just hang in there; And here on NOM you can share what you think.

First of all, as I explained previously, what I said was directed at all men including myself. This is exactly what I said:

Men don't need to be all fragile to accept that men have dominated and continue to dominate the power structures of the world.

It was not my intention to "punish" you. But I can understand how you would see it this way. I want you to know that I know I could have handled this better even though I strongly believe that men need to hold one another accountable and do the work. Alas, and other women should not have to take all the responsibility to educate us on this issue.

Not all ideas and beliefs are equal. An extreme example (which doesn't apply to you) is some people in our country have shared that they believe Jews have created a space laser orbiting the earth and are holding the people of the earth hostage. Another one is that Hilary Clinton was running a child sex ring out of the basement of a Washington, DC pizza parlor. People actually have said these things and believe them. I can share plenty more examples. One man even acted on the latter and came armed and got arrested. Not all beliefs and ideas are worthy of devil's advocacy or seeing "both sides". In fact, that can be dangerous in some instances and enable people to do some truly awful things. I respect your fair mindedness and your moderation. They are valuable strengths. But our strengths can sometimes become maladaptive. We have to recognize when they are useful, helpful and effective and when they are not. Heaven knows I've struggled with maladaptive strengths all my life and even to this day, and I have to constantly work on it.

Bottom line is that this is a support board. And your feelings are valid. I could have handled things better. I'm sorry Reuben. I hope we can give each other another chance. If not, I sincerely wish you well and all the best. I hope you will stay on the board irregardless. I'll also hold back on commenting on other posts and comments you make for now to let things cool down and I promise in the future if I do, I will show more civility and support.

Hello from Holland,

Just ran across this thread, and I recognize a lot from Reuben.

"It has to do with belonging" (paraphrasing)
"I'm terrified. I'm afraid that everywhere I go, there will be a majority of people who think that something about how I think or act - which I put a hell of a lot of deep thought into - is not good enough. I'm afraid that they will employ the same tactics that the church does - apologetics, thought-stopping cliches, social pressure, verbal traps - to try to fit me into their box. And I'll fail to fit into the box and always be less than."

This all sounds so familiar. And as we all have a past and people are naturally curious about your past and present it's always a challenge. If you come into a new circle, be it work, hobby, relationships I have found it's easy to not overshare, and in reverse to remain too closed and aloof.
It's really hard.

I found that from 2017 till now I tend to walk away from anything even resembling a commitment-pattern.
Can't or won't commit to any organization or person.
As soon as someone asks me to do anything resembling a function(aka "calling") I tend to run away.
It's socially crippling in a way. So instead of fearing rejection, and yes that's still a part of it I have subconsciously or not rejected people and particularly organizations/societies/clubs/churches.

Reuben, it's just the way it is.
Yes you want to belong, it's a basic human need. We humans are social creatures.
But the how is a problem now because of how the church has programmed you how belonging works or ought to work.

At least that's my take on it.

It may be Nihilistic, but these facts and rules have helped me cope.
1. You are born alone.
2. You die alone.
3 You didn't even ask to be born.
4. Life just happened and you are along for the ride so just try and enjoy it if you can.
5. Don't intentionally harm other people in your process.

I could add to this list, but it's a start.

Reuben wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:32 pm

And I'll fail to fit into the box...

But that's a superpower, not a sign of fragility. Embrace the weird!