Choose to believe?

[stuck]

I listened to part of a talk recently by my bishop at ward conference and his emphasis was on choosing to believe. For unbelieving folks like myself this just didn't sit right with me. It's almost like they are at a flat-earther's conference and encouraging believers to keep on believing right?! Here's a quote I found on lds.org: "We can choose to believe. For in belief, we discover the dawn of light. We will discover truth. We will find peace." —Dieter F. Uchtdorf

Really Elder Uchtdorf? If we choose to believe, we will discover the truth? This isn't a very scientific approach right? Comments welcome

[Angel]

For what we cannot know, it is possible to choose what to hope for. Given the choice, I hope for a heaven with no heirarchies. No sexism, no racism, equally educated, peaceful heaven for all - all tears wiped away, joy, understanding, love for all.

What does everyone else choose to believe?

[Hagoth]

They have found a more palatable name for self-delusion.

[wtfluff]

If Mr. Bishop "chooses to believe" in Santa Claus, will Santa become real or True™?

If I "choose to believe" that gravity is not real, will I survive jumping off of a 1000 foot cliff?

[Hagoth]

If I "choose to believe" that gravity is not real, will I survive jumping off of a 1000 foot cliff?

I say it's worth a try! My dad always told me "I'd rather have you come home flattened in a pizza box than non-pulverized and believing in so-called gravity."

[Zeezrom]

If I "choose to believe" that gravity is not real, will I survive jumping off of a 1000 foot cliff?

I say it's worth a try! My dad always told me "I'd rather have you come home flattened in a pizza box than non-pulverized and believing in so-called gravity."

I see what you did there Hagoth I wonder how many TBM parents would see themselves in that analogy??

[Red Ryder]

It works both ways.

We can choose not to believe. For in unbelief, we discover the dawn of light. We will discover truth. We will find peace." —F. U. Dieter

[wtfluff]

If I "choose to believe" that gravity is not real, will I survive jumping off of a 1000 foot cliff?

I say it's worth a try! My dad always told me "I'd rather have you come home flattened in a pizza box than non-pulverized and believing in so-called gravity."

Maybe I'll try jumping off the COB before I step it up to the 1000ft cliff.

Maye my non-belief will have more ability to defy gravity from the 26th floor of a building where lots of folks are choosing not to believe in reality.

[jfro18]

Yes, it really does go both ways... and just detaches the belief from evidence and reality the moment you make that the focus.

I know people hate the santa comparisons, but it fits so well especially when you have young children trying to figure it out and you keep trying to get one more year by telling them Santa is real or at least doing things to make them think Santa is.

It's also quite the contrast from earlier quotes from leaders saying that "If we have truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not truth, it ought to be harmed." or "Each of us has to face the matter — either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing."

[Linked]

I choke a little bit on the idea that belief is a choice at all. If there is a continuum between "choice" and "out of one's control" I think believing falls somewhere near the middle. 3 points below.

- Coming to a conclusion is done fairly automatically, it's not something our thoughtful mind controls. The thoughtful mind can put information in a way that changes the conclusion though. (See the Elephant Rider metaphor or A Machine for Jumping to Conclusions from Thinking Fast and Slow)
- We CAN choose actions which support belief, like regular prayer and scripture study. But the decision to do that is in support of a conclusion which may have been more automatic.
- Most people believe what they are taught; the local religion is the correct one. That outcome suggests that the environment is typically more important than the individual's characteristics.

For what we cannot know, it is possible to choose what to hope for. Given the choice, I hope for a heaven with no heirarchies. No sexism, no racism, equally educated, peaceful heaven for all - all tears wiped away, joy, understanding, love for all.

What does everyone else choose to believe?

In my current worldview I don't put a lot of value on belief, particularly about the completely unknowable. I don't have enough justification for it in my mind. So I don't really have a belief regarding the afterlife, I just don't know. But there are certain things which require at least a kind of belief which I hold. I believe that people shouldn't harm each other. I believe that we should be nice to animals, but not enough to be a vegetarian. I believe that raising my kids well is important. I love my kids, which is a belief of sorts; at least it informs my beliefs. I don't really have an objective justification for those beliefs, but I feel them.

[Angel]

For what we cannot know, it is possible to choose what to hope for. Given the choice, I hope for a heaven with no heirarchies. No sexism, no racism, equally educated, peaceful heaven for all - all tears wiped away, joy, understanding, love for all.

What does everyone else choose to believe?

In my current worldview I don't put a lot of value on belief, particularly about the completely unknowable. I don't have enough justification for it in my mind. So I don't really have a belief regarding the afterlife, I just don't know. But there are certain things which require at least a kind of belief which I hold. I believe that people shouldn't harm each other. I believe that we should be nice to animals, but not enough to be a vegetarian. I believe that raising my kids well is important. I love my kids, which is a belief of sorts; at least it informs my beliefs. I don't really have an objective justification for those beliefs, but I feel them.

Seeing is believing or believing is seeing? Rose colored glasses provide sweet dreams at night, and when confronted by missionaries it becomes possible to share your own beliefs - about your glorious God, and even better afterlife - and then feel sorry for everyone else who does not have as happy of a vision or as strong of hope and faith as you do.


... well, I believe in a God who is powerful and wise enough to save everyone in the same degree of glory. My God isn't sexist, my God isn't racist. My God loves all equally, and I believe and have faith we will all be eternally equally blessed and happy .

I mean, if you are going to believe in something - make it something good, right?

[dogbite]

I'm not interested in hope fors not grounded in evidence.

I expect to just end at my death and I find that finality satisfying. Kind of like sleeping well.
The old Roman epitaph works for me NFFNSNC stood for.


Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo.

I was not; I was; I am not; I don't care.

[Hagoth]

It's also quite the contrast from earlier quotes from leaders saying that "If we have truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not truth, it ought to be harmed." or "Each of us has to face the matter — either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing."

Speaking as men, of course.

[Angel]

I'm not interested in hope fors not grounded in evidence.

I expect to just end at my death and I find that finality satisfying. Kind of like sleeping well.
The old Roman epitaph works for me NFFNSNC stood for.


Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo.

I was not; I was; I am not; I don't care.

Do you find there are a few things we humans do not know? For what we do not know, my mind cannot just go blank, I cannot keep myself from wondering, imagining, guessing - and if there is nothing more that can be done then "hope", it is fun to hope for something good.

A good night's sleep is wonderful, I agree, rest and relaxation, with a few pleasant dreams mixed in too

[dogbite]

Sure, there is plenty we do not know.

And saying I don't know is perfectly fine.

[moksha]

They have found a more palatable name for self-delusion.

Choosing to either turn a blind eye or bury one's head in the sand.

[Angel]

Sure, there is plenty we do not know.

And saying I don't know is perfectly fine.

This thread is helping me think through my own hopes, and also healthy ways to interact with others who share their hopes with me.

If a Mormon, or Muslim, or anyone of faith shares their beliefs - I am now thinking a good response might be something along the lines of "I don't know what happens when we die, and I don't think anyone knows what happens, but I hope we will all find love, understanding, joy, and peace - all of us - many paths, one destination."

If I am going to be inspired by something, seek to have faith in something - it needs to really really good. Why seek to worship a God who is unable to educate his children? Unable to "save" everyone? Unable to end suffering? Just sweep dirt under the rug, push people to a different kingdom, ignore, abandon, withold resources to nourish and teach.... that is not inspiring to me.

There are other versions of heaven that are inspiring to me, even if it is just a hope.

[Cnsl1]

A great line from "SecondHand Lions" was that some things are worth believing in, it doesn't matter if they're true.

My beliefs sort of follow that idea.

I believe in God because I want to. I believe that we'll live again after we die. I believe we'll be with family after we die-- well, if we want to, that is.

I believe God doesn't care about most things we think he cares about, and that she probably only mostly cares that we are nice to one another.

I believe we are all connected to each other and to the earth and all the things on it, and that we can sometimes feel that connection, but it's usually never at church.

I believe that love might be all you need, but it's also good to have a job.

I believe that happiness in life relates to having someone or someones to love who also love you back, having work or some passion that you enjoy, and using some of your time, talents, or skills to give to someone else to make their life better.

Those are things I feel are worth believing in.

I also believe Jesus was probably a real person and that he was probably a pretty cool dude.

I believe Mary Magdalena was hopefully a real person, and that she and Jesus had a thing.

I believe that Moroni probably wasn't a real person, but that Captain Moroni was a real person and that his name was George Washington.

I believe that Brigham Young was probably kind of a dick... but that Joseph Smith probably had a bigger one.

I believe that Moses parted his hair, but probably not the red sea.

I believe that Adam and Eve were the first people mentioned in the Bible.

I believe the first humans probably didn't talk very well.

I believe that if God told me to sacrifice my son on an alter like he supposedly told Abraham, then I would tell God to go $@#% himself. I also believe that God was godawful to Job, but that neither of those stories probably really happened, and that most of what is attributed to God probably had nothing to do with God, and maybe God is just something we created to help explain what we can't ever explain or control, or to help us feel justified in treating other people like s#^t .. and since that isn't the God I want to believe in, I don't.

I believe the fullness of the gospel probably has something to do with how much bologna it contains.

I believe that Lucifer is a real bad name for a child, but that Satan is worse.

And finally, I believe that "I Believe in Christ" is probably the worst hymn to sing.

[Hagoth]

Why seek to worship a God who is unable to educate his children? Unable to "save" everyone? Unable to end suffering?

I think I'd settle for a God who could just communicate his existence to his children. This God exists in rumors found in the pages of millennia-old books and the testimonies of people who can't even agree on on basic descriptions of who/what God is, even though they all claim spiritual verification.

God leaves it to us to find the true messenger among a tsunami of charlatans, but the number of religions around the world indicates that he failed to give us even rudimentary tools for doing so. Oh yeah, he did give us brains that can reason, but that seems to lead us away from God and all of his would-be prophets who caution us against using it.

And finally, I believe that "I Believe in Christ" is probably the worst hymn to sing.

I agree with this and just about everything else you said, Cnsl1. But I think "I Know that My Redeemer Lives" might be even more painful for me. After the monotony of about 20 repetitions I just can't keep singing "He lives..."

[Linked]

Seeing is believing or believing is seeing? Rose colored glasses provide sweet dreams at night, and when confronted by missionaries it becomes possible to share your own beliefs - about your glorious God, and even better afterlife - and then feel sorry for everyone else who does not have as happy of a vision or as strong of hope and faith as you do.


... well, I believe in a God who is powerful and wise enough to save everyone in the same degree of glory. My God isn't sexist, my God isn't racist. My God loves all equally, and I believe and have faith we will all be eternally equally blessed and happy .

I mean, if you are going to believe in something - make it something good, right?

Totally! I'd take your God over the sexist, racist, homophobic, hidden Mormon God any day.

This thread is helping me think through my own hopes, and also healthy ways to interact with others who share their hopes with me.

If a Mormon, or Muslim, or anyone of faith shares their beliefs - I am now thinking a good response might be something along the lines of "I don't know what happens when we die, and I don't think anyone knows what happens, but I hope we will all find love, understanding, joy, and peace - all of us - many paths, one destination."

If I am going to be inspired by something, seek to have faith in something - it needs to really really good. Why seek to worship a God who is unable to educate his children? Unable to "save" everyone? Unable to end suffering? Just sweep dirt under the rug, push people to a different kingdom, ignore, abandon, withold resources to nourish and teach.... that is not inspiring to me.

There are other versions of heaven that are inspiring to me, even if it is just a hope.

My argument against this as a believer was that it doesn't matter how good it is, what matters is how true it is, and, I KNOW the Church is True. And because it is True, it is good. ITNOJC, Amen.

The thing that I was most interested in was that I was following the truth. It really still is. So for me a wonderful God and heaven that have no reasons to believe in is not compelling. I think it is great if someone can find comfort in that belief though, I just can't. Honestly, I struggle with the apparent meaninglessness of my existence, but it's part of who I am and where I'm at in life.

With that said, fictional stories can still be inspiring to me as long as they don't claim to be non-fiction. I was moved by Dear Evan Hansen just like everyone else .

Thanks for your openness and kindness in a discussion that can be as personal as this. I hope your beliefs continue to bring you hope and happiness!