Supporting our own

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
Cnsl1
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Re: Supporting our own

Post by Cnsl1 » Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:01 am

Jfro18 you've done an amazing job with this and it's enjoyable to watch/ listen. I've learned a thing or two, and I thought I knew just about everything about this stuff. Thank you.

You talk rather fast. That's ok.. not a condemnation or suggestion to slow down, just an observation. You obviously process information very quickly, or at least this information.

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jfro18
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Re: Supporting our own

Post by jfro18 » Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:51 am

Cnsl1 wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:01 am
You talk rather fast. That's ok.. not a condemnation or suggestion to slow down, just an observation. You obviously process information very quickly, or at least this information.
Yeah I definitely need to work on that. :)

A big part of the reason is that we did a lot of episodes in a short time so we would do 2 or 3 in a day and I was always watching the clock to make sure we could get them done, so I think that I was going faster to make sure we covered everything. And then depending on how much we got off track in the episodes I was trying to play 'catch up' to make sure we could get it all in.

Once we get recording again I am going to try to be a bit slower - you're definitely not the first to say it and I know I was doing it... I have no idea how fast I'd go if I wasn't worried about time, but I think once we start again it should be a more casual pace.

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Supporting our own

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:47 pm

I'm just about to listen to the last one posted on Spotify, I think it's about the KJV and the BOM? In any event, this is some great stuff, I'm really enjoying the focused timeline of these presentations, from the treasure digging to the BOM and just moving from the 1820s and 30s onward. Very entertaining!

On thing I have noticed that I appreciate very much, is how you temper the expectations of the material you are highlighting. For example, you keep talking about how Joseph didn't "plagiarize" from the Late War and View of the Hebrews, but it was in the same worldview and milieu he was working in. I think this is very important - they are not "smoking guns," but they are evidence of a particular worldview he was borrowing from, which in turn makes the BOM a 19th century work, not an ancient work. And the fact you keep hammering away at this is far more effective, in my view, than constantly talking about the BOM being plagiarized from other books.

I always think about this in turns of E.T. and that really crappy knock off, Mac and Me. Mac and Me is not plagiarism per se, but man, everybody can see what it was trying to do, and how it was ripping off ideas to ride E.T's financial coattails. Same with the BOM and the environment surrounding Joseph Smith. I think these have been great, and can't wait to hear more!
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Supporting our own

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:48 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:47 pm
I'm just about to listen to the last one posted on Spotify, I think it's about the KJV and the BOM? In any event, this is some great stuff, I'm really enjoying the focused timeline of these presentations, from the treasure digging to the BOM and just moving from the 1820s and 30s onward. Very entertaining!

On thing I have noticed that I appreciate very much, is how you temper the expectations of the material you are highlighting. For example, you keep talking about how Joseph didn't "plagiarize" from the Late War and View of the Hebrews, but it was in the same worldview and milieu he was working in. I think this is very important - they are not "smoking guns," but they are evidence of a particular worldview he was borrowing from, which in turn makes the BOM a 19th century work, not an ancient work. And the fact you keep hammering away at this is far more effective, in my view, than constantly talking about the BOM being plagiarized from other books.

I always think about this in terms of E.T. and that really crappy knock off, Mac and Me. Mac and Me is not plagiarism per se, but man, everybody can see what it was trying to do, and how it was ripping off ideas to ride E.T's financial coattails. Same with the BOM and the environment surrounding Joseph Smith. I think these have been great, and can't wait to hear more!
Should I go for three? Sometimes technology befuddles me.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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græy
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Re: Supporting our own

Post by græy » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:44 pm

Cnsl1 wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:01 am
Jfro18 you've done an amazing job with this and it's enjoyable to watch/ listen. I've learned a thing or two, and I thought I knew just about everything about this stuff. Thank you.
Ditto. Great job! Looking forward to the rest of the series.
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack

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moksha
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Re: Supporting our own

Post by moksha » Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:48 pm

Here is #10 in this Mormon Stories Podcast series. It is entitled, How the Book of Mormon Was Composed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L-68kZfubU
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Just This Guy
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Re: Supporting our own

Post by Just This Guy » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:26 am

moksha wrote:
Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:48 pm
Here is #10 in this Mormon Stories Podcast series. It is entitled, How the Book of Mormon Was Composed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L-68kZfubU
I started that one on my drive into work this morning.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Hagoth
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Re: Supporting our own

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:44 am

jfro18 wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:51 am
Cnsl1 wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:01 am
You talk rather fast. That's ok.. not a condemnation or suggestion to slow down, just an observation. You obviously process information very quickly, or at least this information.
Yeah I definitely need to work on that. :)
Funny, I listen on 1.5x speed and I hadn't noticed. Probably because I spend a lot of time talking about religion and philosophy with my son and he normally talks at 2.0x speed
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Angel
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Re: Supporting our own

Post by Angel » Fri Jun 24, 2022 7:53 am

Late to the ball-game.

Listening to this "It testifies of Jesus!"

There is a mulch company near us, "Jesus' dirt". Down here in South, quite a few companies "Jesus cleaning company" or "Jesus' car repair", it's a sales tactic - slap the name Jesus on it to sell to Christian club.

Funny thing, his name wasn't even Jesus, JW's have it closer - Roman's re-named him to a more masculine sounding name. They didn't get the name right.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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jfro18
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Re: Supporting our own

Post by jfro18 » Fri Jun 24, 2022 8:23 am

Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:47 pm
On thing I have noticed that I appreciate very much, is how you temper the expectations of the material you are highlighting. For example, you keep talking about how Joseph didn't "plagiarize" from the Late War and View of the Hebrews, but it was in the same worldview and milieu he was working in. I think this is very important - they are not "smoking guns," but they are evidence of a particular worldview he was borrowing from, which in turn makes the BOM a 19th century work, not an ancient work. And the fact you keep hammering away at this is far more effective, in my view, than constantly talking about the BOM being plagiarized from other books.
Thank you! For me this was one of the things I told John early on was that if I was going to do Mormon Stories episodes on this 'project' that I would be clear in some areas that even though a lot of people have beliefs that it happened (plagiarism is a big one esp since it's the start of the CES Letter) that I would go out of my way to try and explain why I don't think it's a good argument.

I know that most believers will not appreciate that I am trying to stick to the most solid evidence I can, but I would have no issue defending anything I say to a family member or church leader if I was ever approached about it.

We'll see if these have any real impact in helping people who are trying to figure this out, but I've gotten a lot of nice emails and messages including a few from believers who liked that I've been willing to push back on some of these things a bit.

I believe we recorded four more after yesterday's and then we'll pick back up in August. It's been nice to have a break from them as I got burned out and had a really sudden death in the family, but hopefully once we pick back up I can take all of the comments and make the future episodes better. :)

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Angel
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Re: Supporting our own

Post by Angel » Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:54 am

Adam and Eve - This and all of the Bible digs will be good for me as I'm juggling more than Morm fam. My parents are JW offshoots. I've rather given up on apologetics, came to terms with it in my own mind, but in talking with others I need to dig it up again as it is the language my family speaks, and I need to get in the convo if I am to protect my kids who are being targeted from all sides.

I appreciate the effort to read all sides. I need to be better at this.

Adam as God, or Adam created by God (JW) as the first human. As a gurl that Eve story for me is the origin of sexism within Christianity - Eve was the one who ate the fruit, Eve was cursed to bear children, Eve was cursed to forever cater to Adam, Eve is the reason women in Christianity are not given leadership roles on and on.

I think it is important to actually read it - Gen 1:1, רֵאשִׁית firstfruit

"Smith, as we have seen above, had little, if any, knowledge of Hebrew language and grammar.....On the basis of Smith's own interpretation of the first verse of Genesis, one must reject his claim to divinely given knowledge
https://www.jewsforjudaism.org/knowledg ... enesis-11/

as far as it is translated correctly... the JW's and my parents get into ancient texts and translations, I've been to Israel over it, have a Jewish friend who tried to teach me Hebrew.

..."Properly, one can say that this word ends in the feminine singular construct ending -eet. If the text of Genesis 1:1 is rendered literally, the translation is: "In the beginning of God's creating the heaven and the earth." This translation is necessary because ray-sheet never means "the beginning" but rather "the beginning of" → stuff like this is how I rationalized it all, not the grand beginning, just the start of an era.

בָּרָא
to shape, form, transform (not creatio ex-Nihilo)

Fascinating, the Torah, interesting to try to understand why that first book as been so influential for so many.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Hagoth
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Re: Supporting our own

Post by Hagoth » Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:20 pm

I really enjoyed the Adam & Eve podcast. Somehow, I had never noticed that Joseph Smith saw both Adam AND Michael in vision. Gotta love it. Add that to the visits of Elijah and Elias, and Joseph calling God Jehovah Elohim and you have a very confused religion that doesn't really know what it believes in. Except, of course, tithing and worshipful admiration for the Lord's anointed.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: Supporting our own

Post by moksha » Fri Jul 08, 2022 11:15 am

The Global Flood and Mormon Scriptures

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSwo7el7pY0

Thought you covered everything before on Beliefnet back in 2004? Well maybe you did, but here are the facts memorialized for posterity. The only thing not covered was where did the water come from and where did it go, but other than that they did an outstanding job in showing how the Church has painted itself into a corner once again.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Just This Guy
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Re: Supporting our own

Post by Just This Guy » Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:26 am

Jfro18,

Did you do a podcast last week? I have not seen anything show up on the Mormon Stories feed in my podcast app that sounds like your series.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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græy
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Re: Supporting our own

Post by græy » Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:05 am

Cnsl1 wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:01 am
Jfro18 you've done an amazing job with this and it's enjoyable to watch/ listen. I've learned a thing or two, and I thought I knew just about everything about this stuff. Thank you.
Ditto. Thank you for all of this, Jfro18!
Last edited by græy on Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack

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jfro18
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Re: Supporting our own

Post by jfro18 » Tue Jul 12, 2022 12:04 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:26 am
Jfro18,

Did you do a podcast last week? I have not seen anything show up on the Mormon Stories feed in my podcast app that sounds like your series.
Weird - I don't know why it's not on their feed, but Global Flood was last week. It's on Youtube for now @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSwo7el7pY0&t=439s

This week is Tower of Babel and then we did Long Ending of Mark and Sermon on the Mount before there will be a few weeks break until we pick back up in August. The break came at a good time - I was getting so burned out! :lol:

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Just This Guy
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Re: Supporting our own

Post by Just This Guy » Wed Jul 13, 2022 6:35 am

jfro18 wrote:
Tue Jul 12, 2022 12:04 pm
Just This Guy wrote:
Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:26 am
Jfro18,

Did you do a podcast last week? I have not seen anything show up on the Mormon Stories feed in my podcast app that sounds like your series.
Weird - I don't know why it's not on their feed, but Global Flood was last week. It's on Youtube for now @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSwo7el7pY0&t=439s

This week is Tower of Babel and then we did Long Ending of Mark and Sermon on the Mount before there will be a few weeks break until we pick back up in August. The break came at a good time - I was getting so burned out! :lol:

It finally showed up in my podcast feed this morning. No idea what is going on, but it is out there now. I'll probably listen to it on my drive back from the airport Friday.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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moksha
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Re: Supporting our own

Post by moksha » Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:52 pm

The Tower of Babel and Mormon Scripture

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi8Y3hQI1HY
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Just This Guy
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Re: Supporting our own

Post by Just This Guy » Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:05 am

Listening to the Deutroisiah episode today. One question not related to that topic but to apologetics in general.

A lot of the BoM apologetics try to deal with the given topic by citing either loose or tight translation methods. Has anyone created a list of the various BoM problems and compared how often they cite tight vs loose translation?
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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græy
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Re: Supporting our own

Post by græy » Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:51 am

Just This Guy wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:05 am
A lot of the BoM apologetics try to deal with the given topic by citing either loose or tight translation methods. Has anyone created a list of the various BoM problems and compared how often they cite tight vs loose translation?
I was thinking the same thing. It would be interesting to see a compiled list of each set of verses or words that demand either a tight or loose translation, knowing that they absolutely cannot have it both ways.
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack

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