"Earthly Identifiers" or "Don't Be Gay"

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stealthbishop
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"Earthly Identifiers" or "Don't Be Gay"

Post by stealthbishop » Wed May 18, 2022 7:56 am

As some of you may know, there was a recent worldwide young adult devotional with RMN and his second celestial wife (Not Even Once Club) Wendy. Here is the SLT's coverage of it:

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/05 ... ll-nelson/


To me this was a way to try and keep LGBTQ+ LDS youth and adults in the closet. I can definitely see how this talk will be cherry picked and weaponized. It does claim plausible deniability though, in the form of recognizing other labels we give ourselves that could supplant LDS labels (eg. child of God, child of the covenant, etc) such as nationality or political party or preference. Also there is a reference to not judging people based on race or orientation. Plausible deniability?

So is it progress or more of the same? My sense is that it is more of the same. The underlying message is the erasure of LGBTQ+ identity and to create a sort of blindness to the suffering and oppression of LGBTQ+ youth and adults in the LDS Church and outside. Believe me, if someone calls themselves a "Tongan Saint" nobody will have ANYTHING to say about it and it will even be celebrated but if you identify as Gay or Trans then watch out! You will be corrected.

What do you think?
Last edited by stealthbishop on Wed May 18, 2022 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Not Buying It
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Re: "Earthly Identifiers" or "Don't Be Gay"

Post by Not Buying It » Wed May 18, 2022 9:26 am

More of the same. Definitely. The Brethren give lip service to not judging people based on race or orientation as they consistently discriminate against people based on sexual orientation. Parts of his talk are specifically designed to make members feel like they aren't bigots while they engage in bigotry - "of course the Church isn't homophobic, the Prophet said not to judge people based on sexual orientation. We just don't want anyone who is gay getting together with anyone they are attracted to".

Until such time as the Church completely normalizes life for its LGBTQ+ members, and treats them no differently than its CIS members, anything that comes out of their mouths about it is hogwash and can be disregarded.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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stealthbishop
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Re: "Earthly Identifiers" or "Don't Be Gay"

Post by stealthbishop » Wed May 18, 2022 10:25 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 9:26 am
More of the same. Definitely. The Brethren give lip service to not judging people based on race or orientation as they consistently discriminate against people based on sexual orientation. Parts of his talk are specifically designed to make members feel like they aren't bigots while they engage in bigotry - "of course the Church isn't homophobic, the Prophet said not to judge people based on sexual orientation. We just don't want anyone who is gay getting together with anyone they are attracted to".

Until such time as the Church completely normalizes life for its LGBTQ+ members, and treats them no differently than its CIS members, anything that comes out of their mouths about it is hogwash and can be disregarded.
Yup. That's exactly where I'm at. Actions speak louder than words.
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Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

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Red Ryder
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Re: "Earthly Identifiers" or "Don't Be Gay"

Post by Red Ryder » Wed May 18, 2022 10:36 am

I love this stuff! I hope the church continues to spout this crap. It’s pushing Sister Ryder closer to the door everyday.

Ironically, I think (and hope) that it’s Elder Bednar that has to reverse course or continue to lose a lot of members. Once the 70 and over age group starts to die off, Mormonism is going to continue to shrink because growth rates are also down. Most of the younger members who have grown up where same sex marriage is normalized will continue to see the church as old bigoted white men.

Bednar will be the pivot prophet. Or Gong later down the road. The church will eventually change they always do.

Unfortunately there’s a lot of collateral damage in the interim which makes me sick to think about. But until change happens, I’m happy to watch Sister Ryder wake up ever so slowly.
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Angel
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Re: "Earthly Identifiers" or "Don't Be Gay"

Post by Angel » Wed May 18, 2022 11:32 am

stealthbishop wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 7:56 am
As some of you may know, there was a recent worldwide young adult devotional with RMN and his second celestial wife (Not Even Once Club) Wendy. Here is the SLT's coverage of it:

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/05 ... ll-nelson/


To me this was a way to try and keep LGBTQ+ LDS youth and adults in the closet. I can definitely see how this talk will be cherry picked and weaponized. It does claim plausible deniability though, in the form of recognizing other labels we give ourselves that could supplant LDS labels (eg. child of God, child of the covenant, etc) such as nationality or political party or preference. Also there is a reference to not judging people based on race or orientation. Plausible deniability?

So is it progress or more of the same? My sense is that it is more of the same. The underlying message is the erasure of LGBTQ+ identity and to create a sort of blindness to the suffering and oppression of LGBTQ+ youth and adults in the LDS Church and outside. Believe me, if someone calls themselves a "Tongan Saint" nobody will have ANYTHING to say about it and it will even be celebrated but if you identify as Gay or Trans then watch out! You will be corrected.

What do you think?
Did slt take article down?
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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wtfluff
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Re: "Earthly Identifiers" or "Don't Be Gay"

Post by wtfluff » Wed May 18, 2022 12:44 pm

Angel wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 11:32 am
stealthbishop wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 7:56 am
As some of you may know, there was a recent worldwide young adult devotional with RMN and his second celestial wife (Not Even Once Club) Wendy. Here is the SLT's coverage of it:

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/05 ... ll-nelson/


To me this was a way to try and keep LGBTQ+ LDS youth and adults in the closet. I can definitely see how this talk will be cherry picked and weaponized. It does claim plausible deniability though, in the form of recognizing other labels we give ourselves that could supplant LDS labels (eg. child of God, child of the covenant, etc) such as nationality or political party or preference. Also there is a reference to not judging people based on race or orientation. Plausible deniability?

So is it progress or more of the same? My sense is that it is more of the same. The underlying message is the erasure of LGBTQ+ identity and to create a sort of blindness to the suffering and oppression of LGBTQ+ youth and adults in the LDS Church and outside. Believe me, if someone calls themselves a "Tongan Saint" nobody will have ANYTHING to say about it and it will even be celebrated but if you identify as Gay or Trans then watch out! You will be corrected.

What do you think?
Did slt take article down?
Try this:

https://web.archive.org/web/20220517065 ... ll-nelson/
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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wtfluff
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Re: "Earthly Identifiers" or "Don't Be Gay"

Post by wtfluff » Wed May 18, 2022 12:52 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 10:36 am
...
Unfortunately there’s a lot of collateral damage in the interim which makes me sick to think about.
...
THIS is the part that really bothers me. Are those old fogies trapped in a thick enough bubble that they don't even realize what they are doing? Or do they just not care?

You'd think that Rusty's Magick Pen™ could get a "revelation" that might help the folks who are dying by suicide right in his back yard, but no... Don't use the word MORmON is a much more important "revelation" than that.

Yep, there it is: That sick feeling...
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

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Red Ryder
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Re: "Earthly Identifiers" or "Don't Be Gay"

Post by Red Ryder » Wed May 18, 2022 4:30 pm

I’ll point out the good statement in the article:
Nelson also said people who leave the church don’t deserve judgment any more than people who stay in the fold deserve criticism.

“If friends and family should step away from the church, continue to love them,” he counseled. “... Let your skeptical friends see how much you love the Lord and his gospel. Surprise their doubting hearts with your believing heart.”
Now let’s repeat this every April and October!
“I switched baristas” —Lady Gaga

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2bizE
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Re: "Earthly Identifiers" or "Don't Be Gay"

Post by 2bizE » Wed May 18, 2022 7:42 pm

Well FOMO
~2bizE

Cnsl1
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Re: "Earthly Identifiers" or "Don't Be Gay"

Post by Cnsl1 » Thu May 19, 2022 1:00 am

RMN sure seems to know what makes the adversary rejoice. Using the word Mormon and using labels! Who knew? Thanks. But I guess "Mormon " is kind of a label, isn't it? So it makes sense. We'll have to stop calling people active, inactive, members, endowed, un-endowed, full tithe payers, prospective elders, missionaries, young single adults, children of record, defenders of the faith, apologists, investigators, Christians, brothers, sisters, oh crap! Satan must be ecstatic!

No more labels, everyone.

Before tonight, if you'd have told me that Satan loves the labels, I'd have probably argued with you.

And the most important work is gathering Israel? I guess so. I dk why I spent so much time in this church thinking it was about trying to be like Christ or serving others. I should have known. My bad. I missed the memo back it the 80s. I really didn't know the most important work was gathering Israel, I just thought that was something we believed. But RMN says it's the most important work.. and it's in the Articles of Faith. And it's literal.. (so be sure to tell them we're gathering here in America. Literally).

I think for my generation there's been more RIMO than FOMO. Regret in missing out. Coffee? Eh, turns out it's kinda good for you. Masturbation? Turns out it's not that bad for you. But, did all the church attendance keep me from becoming a meth addict? Well.. that's probably a stretch.

Good on RMN for promoting loving those of us who stray from the gospel. I'm not sure that those of us who bail from the insanity will be offered the same love, but maybe so. It's just semantics after all.

And Idk why half the time I read Wendy Nelson, my mind thinks Willie Nelson, but I sure as hell know who I'd rather spend an afternoon listening to.

"Well I heard that his herb was top shelf
And I just couldn't wait to find out for myself.
Don't knock it till you try it, and I tried it my friend. And I'll never smoke weed with Willie again. "

And they said that her books were so great
She wrote one for couples, before she had a mate.
And then one for children to make em feel like they sin.
I'll never buy books from Wendy again.
Last edited by Cnsl1 on Sat May 28, 2022 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

Charlotte
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Re: "Earthly Identifiers" or "Don't Be Gay"

Post by Charlotte » Thu May 19, 2022 1:08 am

Nelson also said people who leave the church don’t deserve judgment any more than people who stay in the fold deserve criticism.

“If friends and family should step away from the church, continue to love them,” he counseled. “... Let your skeptical friends see how much you love the Lord and his gospel. Surprise their doubting hearts with your believing heart.”
While I appreciate him saying not to shun people who leave, I’m dismayed when he implies that those who leave don’t love the Lord. Some of us are more focused than ever on him, and finally sincerely asking, What would Jesus do? Because we now we make decisions for ourselves.

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Re: "Earthly Identifiers" or "Don't Be Gay"

Post by blazerb » Thu May 19, 2022 7:02 am

I can't help but interpret his words in light of Wendy Nelson's words from about 1.5 years ago when she told LGBT+ persons that they could pray to have their "sexual feelings be in harmony with eternal laws." Her training should have taught her that "pray the gay away" does not work. She just doubled down on harmful teachings. So until someone gets up and says that Wendy Nelson was wrong, that Boyd Packer was wrong, that Spencer Kimball was wrong, etc., it's just more of the same.

If you want to try to stomach WN's talk, you can watch it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekVlrSr43js. You can find the discussion of prayer starting at about the 8:20 mark. The whole talk is pretty awful.

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Red Ryder
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Re: "Earthly Identifiers" or "Don't Be Gay"

Post by Red Ryder » Thu May 19, 2022 8:17 am

“Cnsl1” wrote: "Well they said that his herb is top shelf
And I just couldn't wait to find out for myself.
Don't knock it till you try it, and I tried it my friend. And I'll never smoke weed with Willie again. "

And they said that her books were so great
She wrote one for couples, before she had a mate.
And then one for children to make em feel like they sin.
I'll never buy books from Wendy again.
🤣🤣

We went to seminary graduation last night and this talk was already quoted. Mormons don’t take long to smoke the prophets dope.
“I switched baristas” —Lady Gaga

Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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alas
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Re: "Earthly Identifiers" or "Don't Be Gay"

Post by alas » Thu May 19, 2022 10:35 am

blazerb wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 7:02 am
I can't help but interpret his words in light of Wendy Nelson's words from about 1.5 years ago when she told LGBT+ persons that they could pray to have their "sexual feelings be in harmony with eternal laws." Her training should have taught her that "pray the gay away" does not work. She just doubled down on harmful teachings. So until someone gets up and says that Wendy Nelson was wrong, that Boyd Packer was wrong, that Spencer Kimball was wrong, etc., it's just more of the same.

If you want to try to stomach WN's talk, you can watch it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekVlrSr43js. You can find the discussion of prayer starting at about the 8:20 mark. The whole talk is pretty awful.
If her training was at BYU, I am pretty sure they were teaching that gays could be fixed when she got her degree. I was at Provo High, across the street from BYU campus, and I was taught that it was inborn clear back in 1969-1970. Then at Weber state and my grad school, we were taught that it was inborn and unchangable. Getting my masters degree, 1986-7 there was one fellow student who graduated BYU who believed that it was learned from other boys, by stuff like masturbating in a circle jerk. Then in about 1990, I knew a few counselors at LDS family Services and they were younger than me and they firmly believed that playing basketball and “bonding” with men could fix it, or that talking about their weak ineffectual father and their dominating mother could fix it. My eyes got stuck for a few minutes up top of my head. No, they were not friends because I could not respect them. But all BYU grads. If BKP says it is learned behavior and can be changed, I guess that is what BYU taught.

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blazerb
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Re: "Earthly Identifiers" or "Don't Be Gay"

Post by blazerb » Thu May 19, 2022 12:26 pm

alas wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 10:35 am
If her training was at BYU, I am pretty sure they were teaching that gays could be fixed when she got her degree. I was at Provo High, across the street from BYU campus, and I was taught that it was inborn clear back in 1969-1970. Then at Weber state and my grad school, we were taught that it was inborn and unchangable. Getting my masters degree, 1986-7 there was one fellow student who graduated BYU who believed that it was learned from other boys, by stuff like masturbating in a circle jerk. Then in about 1990, I knew a few counselors at LDS family Services and they were younger than me and they firmly believed that playing basketball and “bonding” with men could fix it, or that talking about their weak ineffectual father and their dominating mother could fix it. My eyes got stuck for a few minutes up top of my head. No, they were not friends because I could not respect them. But all BYU grads. If BKP says it is learned behavior and can be changed, I guess that is what BYU taught.
The semester is over so I have time for a deeper dive. She earned her bachelor's in psych at the University of Hawaii at Manoa. Her master's in marriage and family therapy came from BYU. Then her Ph.D. came from the University of Calgary in family therapy and gerontology, if one trusts Wikipedia. That time at BYU probably overcame what she learned elsewhere. It's kind of sad. She's another smart person who has ended up using their knowledge in damaging ways.

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wtfluff
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Re: "Earthly Identifiers" or "Don't Be Gay"

Post by wtfluff » Thu May 19, 2022 12:46 pm

I wonder how the uppity-ups feel about the following "labels" ?

Prophet, seer, revelator, president, patriarch, bishop, elder, priest, teacher, deacon, brother, and most importantly: CEO.

We won't even bother to mention the labels used for females, because... Well, in LD$-Inc. they basically don't exist. Sorry "Sisters".


It would be hilarious to meet Rusty in person and say to him: "I don't want to 'label' you, so I'll just address you by your first name; is that OK Russ?"
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

The Beauty of Gray

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moksha
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Re: "Earthly Identifiers" or "Don't Be Gay"

Post by moksha » Fri May 20, 2022 4:17 am

wtfluff wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 12:52 pm
Are those old fogies trapped in a thick enough bubble that they don't even realize what they are doing? Or do they just not care?
I think this is based on the unfortunate human failing of needing someone to look down upon. Remember how they could always be counted on to jab at those communists? That served as a good outlet until the fall of communism in the Soviet Union. Soon afterward the Brethren were able to refocus their hatred toward the LGBTQ community, where it has flourished until it became obvious that such hateful pronouncements were no longer popular in the world outside of Mormonism. They had cut back a bit on the rhetoric, but it has never been absent from General Conference.

The Brethren would never accept the proposition that they are less inspired than the general populace.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Angel
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Re: "Earthly Identifiers" or "Don't Be Gay"

Post by Angel » Fri May 20, 2022 12:45 pm

It is a technique to isolate - possessive controlling loyalty - you only identify with us, as us, nothing else. A way to prevent members from finding belonging and support outside the cult.

Pro-tip everyone- there is better belonging and support outside the cult.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Hagoth
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Re: "Earthly Identifiers" or "Don't Be Gay"

Post by Hagoth » Sun May 22, 2022 5:57 am

Cnsl1 wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 1:00 am
RMN sure seems to know what makes the adversary rejoice.
I have noticed that LDS prophets never say "thus sayeth the Lord," but they seem to really be tuned into Satan's thoughts.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: "Earthly Identifiers" or "Don't Be Gay"

Post by Hagoth » Sun May 22, 2022 6:03 am

Charlotte wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 1:08 am
Nelson also said people who leave the church don’t deserve judgment any more than people who stay in the fold deserve criticism.

“If friends and family should step away from the church, continue to love them,” he counseled. “... Let your skeptical friends see how much you love the Lord and his gospel. Surprise their doubting hearts with your believing heart.”
While I appreciate him saying not to shun people who leave, I’m dismayed when he implies that those who leave don’t love the Lord. Some of us are more focused than ever on him, and finally sincerely asking, What would Jesus do? Because we now we make decisions for ourselves.
I'm really glad you brought this up, Charlotte. The whole plan requires that you are entirely devoted to an alien polygamist sitting on a throne near Kolob, who was once just a guy on some other planet but is now obsessed with bare shoulders, earring piercings, coffee, butts in pews, extracting the widow's mite, and amassing investment portfolios. There are many more noble ways to understand and have a relationship with Divinity that don't require you to believe in angels with gold books and magic spectacles.

LDS leaders teach that spirituality ends when you lose faith in Mormon Elohim, but for many that is when it really begins.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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