Pope n' Prophet

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Hagoth
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Pope n' Prophet

Post by Hagoth » Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:13 pm

https://apnews.com/article/pope-francis ... 464966b66e

The infallible Pope arrived in Canada to apologize to the Canadian Indigenous groups - for the second time - for his church's role in the boarding school debacle of the previous century. Meanwhile, Mormon leaders, who can't be pinned down to anything because of posthumous-fallibility-of-convenience, continue to refuse to offer or accept apologies. This despite the fact that they not only participated in the national boarding school program but grew their own program with the claim of repairing the Native American childrens' dark and loathsome skin, and despite doing everything they could to steal the identities of millions of natives of an entire hemisphere and recast them as the Orcs in Joseph Smith's fantasy novel.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: Pope n' Prophet

Post by moksha » Sun Jul 24, 2022 10:36 pm

Pope Francis understands the steps of repentance and is humble to offer an apology. He is sensitive to the wounds of the world and empathetic enough to heal the wound where he may.

LSD leaders remain stiff-necked in their refusal to ever apologize. They believe the Church can fit through the eye of a needle without humility.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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stealthbishop
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Re: Pope n' Prophet

Post by stealthbishop » Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:02 am

Leaders lead by example. Church leaders who teach and expect their people to follow a repentance process but either don't follow it themselves or don't follow it as an institution are hypocrites and not worth having as leaders. It is a red flag that the organization is sick and/or toxic. Good job to the Pope for showing humility and taking the right steps in the midst of this horrible atrocity. When Oaks said, as Hagoth referenced, that the church neither accepts or gives apologies, it sent an unmistakable signal. Believe people when they show you who they are.
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Angel
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Re: Pope n' Prophet

Post by Angel » Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:54 pm

I've been to Holocaust events where children of Nazi's apologize to survivors. I have ancestors who weren't such great people, do I apologize for what some of my ancestors did?

"Francis’s remarks Monday hit much the same note as the earlier apology, in that he lamented the actions of individuals in the church — not the church itself."

Acknowledge is a good first step.
It is never just "a few bad apples", it's everyone who supported, confirmed, enabled. I'm not sure there are any examples of an organization which acted correctly? Boy scouts came close, actually paying victims, changing policies etc.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
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Mormorrisey
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Re: Pope n' Prophet

Post by Mormorrisey » Mon Jul 25, 2022 5:33 pm

As one of the resident Canadians holding membership in the NOM 1st ward, you need to know that this is a huge story in Canada. This is big time news, and I think the newspaper account you have put here, Hagoth, is a pretty decent summary of the issues at play, and some important historical context, and I'll just highlight some details a little more. The most important of which, is that the residential schooling system has produced generational trauma in indigenous communities throughout Canada, and that both Canadians and indigenous people need to work together to facilitate the healing process.

Most of the spadework for this apology by the Pope happened under the Conservative government in the 2000s, with Stephen Harper as our PM (still shocks me to this day how important he was to all of this, but credit due is credit due.) Harper appointed a Truth and Reconciliation committee that set out a number of things that should be done to facilitate healing - now, in fairness, many of these items that came out in the committee's report in 2009 still need to happen, so there is still a huge backlog of financial, educational, medical and other important resources that need to be put in place. One of these items on the committee being, that the Catholic Church as the largest sponsor of residential schools should probably offer an apology at some point. (I know a fair bit about the committee, one of the administrators at the university I taught at was a member of the committee, and he had some very interesting stories to tell about his time there.)

In any event, the United Church of Canada offered a formal apology in 1986, the Anglican Church offered one in 1992, and the Canadian government officially apologized in 2008. Now, individual Catholic orders and dioceses in Canada have offered apologies in the past, but the fact that the Pope is spending the week here officially apologizing on behalf of the entire organization is a huge deal. Granted, the reason that it became such huge news is of course the mass grave that was found outside a former residential school building using GPR imaging last year, and that put all of this back into the public spotlight. But whatever it takes, I guess, and good on the Pope for spending the week here, and more importantly, actually meeting the survivors of residential school abuse, which is really significant.

But of course, the point is, apologies for past and present behaviour is a good thing. Something clearly the Mormon church is not interested in, and that's the entire point.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Hagoth
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Re: Pope n' Prophet

Post by Hagoth » Mon Jul 25, 2022 7:28 pm

Thank you for filling in those blanks, Mormorrisey.

A lot of people are saying it's too little, too late. That may be true but, but I appreciated hearing some humility when Pope Francis begged God for forgiveness, something that you will never hear coming from the mouth of an LDS leader. The Mormon equivalent would be to issue a vague statement that throws some unnamed people under the bus in a non-specific generality while chastising members who cast any specific blame.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Red Ryder
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Re: Pope n' Prophet

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:46 am

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 7:28 pm
A lot of people are saying it's too little, too late.
Count me as one of those people.

Regardless of any sort of apology past or present, any organization that represents any sort of God would do all they could to avoid every problem requiring an apology of sorts. Why is child sexual abuse happening under the roofs of their churches in the first place? Why are racist teachings sewn into the fabrics of their doctrines? Why do they hide and cover up their darkest flaws? Why do their institutions create perfect shelters to propagate and hide abuse?

Apology smology…

Shouldn’t we expect more out of religion?
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Mormorrisey
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Re: Pope n' Prophet

Post by Mormorrisey » Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:41 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:46 am
Hagoth wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 7:28 pm
A lot of people are saying it's too little, too late.
Count me as one of those people.

Regardless of any sort of apology past or present, any organization that represents any sort of God would do all they could to avoid every problem requiring an apology of sorts. Why is child sexual abuse happening under the roofs of their churches in the first place? Why are racist teachings sewn into the fabrics of their doctrines? Why do they hide and cover up their darkest flaws? Why do their institutions create perfect shelters to propagate and hide abuse?

Apology smology…

Shouldn’t we expect more out of religion?
You are not alone in your sentiment, RR. There are a lot of gaps in the pope's apology, as pointed out in this article, should anyone want to have a gander, and this from a major news outlet in Canada:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/gaps-in-p ... -1.6004557

I like what the Crown minister said about the Pope's apology - it's up to indigenous peoples to say what they think about it. That about sums it up for me. If the Mormon church ever apologizes for its previous sins, which I'm sure is when a certain place freezes over, it's up to the people that have been wronged whether or not the apology is accepted or not. Not me.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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alas
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Re: Pope n' Prophet

Post by alas » Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:54 am

Mormorrisey wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:41 am
Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:46 am
Hagoth wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 7:28 pm
A lot of people are saying it's too little, too late.
Count me as one of those people.

Regardless of any sort of apology past or present, any organization that represents any sort of God would do all they could to avoid every problem requiring an apology of sorts. Why is child sexual abuse happening under the roofs of their churches in the first place? Why are racist teachings sewn into the fabrics of their doctrines? Why do they hide and cover up their darkest flaws? Why do their institutions create perfect shelters to propagate and hide abuse?

Apology smology…

Shouldn’t we expect more out of religion?
You are not alone in your sentiment, RR. There are a lot of gaps in the pope's apology, as pointed out in this article, should anyone want to have a gander, and this from a major news outlet in Canada:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/gaps-in-p ... -1.6004557

I like what the Crown minister said about the Pope's apology - it's up to indigenous peoples to say what they think about it. That about sums it up for me. If the Mormon church ever apologizes for its previous sins, which I'm sure is when a certain place freezes over, it's up to the people that have been wronged whether or not the apology is accepted or not. Not me.
I see an apology as a first step toward reconciliation. There usually needs to be follow up with restitution and changes to see that things like that don’t happen again. Now, I don’t pretend to have suggestion for the Catholic Church on what restitution is owed to Canada’s First Nation people, or how the Catholic Church could change to avoid any future situation where children are abused, but I would suggest it should be more than just words.

Moving back to the idea that if the Mormon church ever apologized, there was some interesting discussion over on some of the feminist blogs about the most recent temple changes a few years ago. It was kind of a discussion about making the necessary changes, without the apology. Is THAT repentance? Many of the women felt that the changes were not helpful in healing the years and years of hurt, because it came with zero acknowledgement of those years and years of hurt. In fact, it came with an order not to discuss the changes. It hurt that the church would make the change and pretend that the way things were before never hurt anyone. It was an additional slap in the face that women were not worth some recognition that the things the church had done for years HURT women. It felt like one time there was a playground incident where my daughter got hurt, and the mother of the guilty brat had guilty brat by the ear, 6 inches off the ground, yelling at him to apologize. Yeah, he apologized, but he learned that violence is really OK, and just don’t get caught. Has the church learned anything as they struggle to keep women from leaving? Or they like that little boy, being forced to make changes they don’t want to make? Do they even half get it that their temple endowment had made women feel less loved by God, second class. I don’t think so.

So, really, the apology is one necessary first step. But it isn’t the only step necessary for full reconciliation. If I was native America instead of white, I would recognize the apology, thank the Pope, and then wait and watch to see if something was learned from the mistake, or if they are only sorry they got caught. If they have actually learned, there will be institutional changes, there will be new teachings, there will be real respect for religions other than their own, instead of just the push to convert everyone. But if I was Native America, I wouldn’t trust them as far as I can spit. Not until they prove they learned something and really repented, not just got exposed.

But then, since I’m not Native American, I will respect their right to be more forgiving than I am, if that is what they do.

I respect the Pope for taking at least one step in the right direction.

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