Husband accepted Primary calling behind my back!

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AdmiralHoldo
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Husband accepted Primary calling behind my back!

Post by AdmiralHoldo » Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:46 pm

I've mentioned before that I was placed on some kind of permanent blacklist when, in 2018, I told a Senior Primary class that Joseph Smith was married to several other women besides Emma. I haven't been asked to serve in a calling, sub in Primary (and they are always short on subs), give a talk, pray in church or even feed the missionaries. About 6 months ago, I decided to embrace my lazy learner status and stop attending church. After all, the ward leadership had made it very clear that the ward did not need any contribution from me.

Today at dinner, my husband accidentally let slip that he has been teaching Primary for the last several months, He had been subbing in Primary and back in May they made it official and extended a calling to him. He accepted the calling without saying anything to me, presumably because he knew the hurt it would cause. He decided it was better to keep a secret than to be truthful with me. Kind of like, oh I don't know, Joseph Smith.

I really have a lot of feelings to sit with right now. The fact that someone asked him to serve in a calling and didn't ask me. The fact that he believed that it would be better for our marriage to be dishonest with me. The fact that he chose his loyalty over the institutional church OVER his loyalty to his wife - and if we were to ask President Nelson, he would say that my husband made exactly the right choice. After all, we swear a pretty detailed oath of loyalty to the LDS church when we go through the temple. But the only covenant a man makes regarding his wife is that he won't have sex with anyone he's not married to.

Husband: What should I have said when they asked me to do this?
Me: You should have said, if Admiral Holdo is not fit to teach Primary, then neither am I.

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alas
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Re: Husband accepted Primary calling behind my back!

Post by alas » Sun Jul 24, 2022 8:26 pm

I am sorry your husband felt he couldn’t tell you the truth. I understand why this hurts. But remember that the reason that you “aren’t good enough for the church is that it likes to lie and you told the truth. The truth is that you are too good for the Mormon church. The church not only demands that it be a third party in every marriage, but that the first and primary loyalty is to it rather than the spouse.

It is fair to tell your hubby that it really hurt that he didn’t want to be honest with you, and that it hurts that the church doesn’t respect you enough to care how you might feel about his having a calling, especially after sending you the message that you are not good enough. Instead of avoiding hurting you, he just compounded the hurt by not being honest. Not only doesn’t he respect how you feel, but he thinks dishonesty will fix it.

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moksha
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Re: Husband accepted Primary calling behind my back!

Post by moksha » Sun Jul 24, 2022 10:19 pm

A clear case of Primary betrayal.

I can't help but think those extending the calling were aware of reopening this wound. I doubt keeping the kids ignorant of Joseph's skirt-chasing is worth the deception and strife it has caused. Hope you can find some solace, Admiral H.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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stealthbishop
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Re: Husband accepted Primary calling behind my back!

Post by stealthbishop » Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:15 am

I would feel feelings of hurt and maybe even betrayal over this too I think. My hope is that you can continue to share your feelings with your husband, that he can recognize that your feelings are very legitimate, and that he can learn to do better going forward. I'm sorry you're going through this. I can definitely see and feel where you are coming from Admiral.
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

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Angel
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Re: Husband accepted Primary calling behind my back!

Post by Angel » Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:06 pm

You can't leave the church, or be in a mixed-faith marriage without learning to be independent.

At some point, it switches in your mind, they are not your spouse, they are a room mate.

At some point, you just feel sorry for them.

Embrace your independence - more than self-care, be free.

Take a vacation without them.
Get a new job without them.
Be free.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Angel
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Re: Husband accepted Primary calling behind my back!

Post by Angel » Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:10 pm

stealthbishop wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:15 am
I would feel feelings of hurt and maybe even betrayal over this too I think. My hope is that you can continue to share your feelings with your husband, that he can recognize that your feelings are very legitimate, and that he can learn to do better going forward. I'm sorry you're going through this. I can definitely see and feel where you are coming from Admiral.
Share feelings? No one in the church ever listens, it is impossible to share or be close to anyone living in that fog. Best to be polite, and go about your life completely independent of any feelings for any of them.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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stealthbishop
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Re: Husband accepted Primary calling behind my back!

Post by stealthbishop » Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:24 pm

Angel wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:10 pm
stealthbishop wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:15 am
I would feel feelings of hurt and maybe even betrayal over this too I think. My hope is that you can continue to share your feelings with your husband, that he can recognize that your feelings are very legitimate, and that he can learn to do better going forward. I'm sorry you're going through this. I can definitely see and feel where you are coming from Admiral.
Share feelings? No one in the church ever listens, it is impossible to share or be close to anyone living in that fog. Best to be polite, and go about your life completely independent of any feelings for any of them.

It hasn't been my experience that no one in the church ever listens. In fact, I was in the church and I began to listen to others who had a faith crisis and it did sink in for me. I have had others who do actually listen. I'm not invalidating your experience. In your case I can definitely believe that no one in the church listens. It's probably the case for a lot of people. I do get what you are saying. I get that. And I do think what you are saying about independence is helpful and valid. However, for me, over time, my wife eventually began to listen. It did plant seeds that made a difference to her when she ended up having her own faith crisis. She said things that I said to her 10 years before and they did sink in. She just needed to have an experience that validated what I had been saying. And it happened in her case. I know it doesn't happen certainly in every case or even a majority of cases but I'm glad that I shared my feelings with her and that I still continued to have feelings for my wife who was orthodox. We tried to find common ground and not live totally separate lives. I think if we had. We would not be together today. But sometimes, you're right, that's what one has to do. Everybody is different.
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

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dogbite
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Re: Husband accepted Primary calling behind my back!

Post by dogbite » Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:35 pm

Did you have a prior agreement about accepting church callings?

I can understand the anger issue where the church didn't ask you about his accepting a teacher callings . I think that the norm is the spouse isn't involved for approval? Those are reserved for more intense assignments usually. So I hope you two had agreed to boundaries for this. But it seems like you may not have. My wife and I do not have expressed boundaries here either, but we ended up navigating it differently.

My confusion here is rooted in your anger at his spiritual life.

Is your marriage based on a unified spiritual path? The assumption in LDS marriage is that this is the case. But is it a fair and appropriate assumption?

For me at least, I want my partner to have her own spiritual path. I would like that it is congruent with mine, but I more strongly want her to be her authentic self. Encouraging her to be her authentic self helps her accept my authentic self even though these parts of our selves diverge from each other on the spiritual side of things. If I can't love her for her authentic self, is that a relationship either of us want? I want to be loved for my authentic self, not a performed or repressed self for the sake of the partnership. Now sure, we both give up parts of our individual wants for the partnership and for it to work. That is understood and agreed to. And there are discussions about things one wants and the other doesn't and where we compromise. If we come to a point where no compromise can be found, we'll see what happens, same as anyone else.

As NOMs we talk about going slow on our divergence from the faith. Part of this is to maintain our relationships. We want to be respected for our own faith experience.

Can we respect others having a different faith experience? Can we have a relationship that includes divergent faith experiences?

When my faith vanished, I knew it was a relationship risk. I consciously set about to redefine our relationship away from religion. I essentially courted my spouse anew to validate her in ways separate from religion so that religious performance didn't define us. LDSness tends to validate members from their performance in the religion. By moving our relationship to us rather than making church the center of our relationship, that worked for us so far. I do love her differently than I did as a believer. I can't speak to her experience on that.

We don't agree on religion. But we don't have to. I hope you find a way to agree about each other, even if not on spiritual things. She teaches Gospel Doctrine. I wasn't asked about that either by the church but I think she mentioned it to me. As I recall, she had said yes, but would rescind that if I had a problem. I don't want that level of input over her decisions spiritually. I did say that if she had taken a more time intensive calling I would have reservations.
I think those stresses would have negatively impacted her and us.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Husband accepted Primary calling behind my back!

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:58 pm

dogbite wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:35 pm
Did you have a prior agreement about accepting church callings?

I can understand the anger issue where the church didn't ask you about his accepting a teacher callings . I think that the norm is the spouse isn't involved for approval? Those are reserved for more intense assignments usually. So I hope you two had agreed to boundaries for this. But it seems like you may not have. My wife and I do not have expressed boundaries here either, but we ended up navigating it differently.

My confusion here is rooted in your anger at his spiritual life.

Is your marriage based on a unified spiritual path? The assumption in LDS marriage is that this is the case. But is it a fair and appropriate assumption?

For me at least, I want my partner to have her own spiritual path. I would like that it is congruent with mine, but I more strongly want her to be her authentic self. Encouraging her to be her authentic self helps her accept my authentic self even though these parts of our selves diverge from each other on the spiritual side of things. If I can't love her for her authentic self, is that a relationship either of us want? I want to be loved for my authentic self, not a performed or repressed self for the sake of the partnership. Now sure, we both give up parts of our individual wants for the partnership and for it to work. That is understood and agreed to. And there are discussions about things one wants and the other doesn't and where we compromise. If we come to a point where no compromise can be found, we'll see what happens, same as anyone else.

As NOMs we talk about going slow on our divergence from the faith. Part of this is to maintain our relationships. We want to be respected for our own faith experience.

Can we respect others having a different faith experience? Can we have a relationship that includes divergent faith experiences?

When my faith vanished, I knew it was a relationship risk. I consciously set about to redefine our relationship away from religion. I essentially courted my spouse anew to validate her in ways separate from religion so that religious performance didn't define us. LDSness tends to validate members from their performance in the religion. By moving our relationship to us rather than making church the center of our relationship, that worked for us so far. I do love her differently than I did as a believer. I can't speak to her experience on that.

We don't agree on religion. But we don't have to. I hope you find a way to agree about each other, even if not on spiritual things. She teaches Gospel Doctrine. I wasn't asked about that either by the church but I think she mentioned it to me. As I recall, she had said yes, but would rescind that if I had a problem. I don't want that level of input over her decisions spiritually. I did say that if she had taken a more time intensive calling I would have reservations.
I think those stresses would have negatively impacted her and us.
Excellent response!

Part of making our marriage work was understanding we wouldn’t always agree on certain things. Church turned out to be one of those after I had my enlightenment. Note I’m no longer using “Faith crisis” as a label because it’s a silly term that puts the problem on me.

For years it was the source of deep resentment and regrets and now that we have come closer together as she goes through her enlightenment journey we both recognize that we didn’t allow each other to have individual spiritual paths. The church pushed the covenant path and we resented each other’s position (or lack of) on that path.

Honestly evaluate where the frustration lies. Address that with him specifically.

Are you upset because he is teaching primary?
Are you upset because he didn’t communicate with you?

Have honest conversations and let him know your feelings are hurt and that you don’t want the church to be a massive wedge in your marriage.
“I switched baristas” —Lady Gaga

Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

dogbite
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Re: Husband accepted Primary calling behind my back!

Post by dogbite » Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:12 pm

I also want to say that if ones particular harm/injury is religious in source, then I think it can be reasonable to not have a partner in that religion as a requirement. But I'm not certain that is the case here?

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AdmiralHoldo
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Re: Husband accepted Primary calling behind my back!

Post by AdmiralHoldo » Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:53 pm

He told me that he made a conscious decision to hide it from me. I don't think that's okay.

And, again, this isn't just any calling. This is the calling that got me permanently blacklisted. The same people who decided I am not worthy to hold any calling again, ever, or give a talk or even pray in Relief Society, are the same people going to my husband and asking (telling) him to teach Primary.

It's not a betrayal on the level of him cheating on me, but it's a betrayal.

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Angel
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Re: Husband accepted Primary calling behind my back!

Post by Angel » Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:07 pm

stealthbishop wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:24 pm
Angel wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:10 pm
stealthbishop wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:15 am
I would feel feelings of hurt and maybe even betrayal over this too I think. My hope is that you can continue to share your feelings with your husband, that he can recognize that your feelings are very legitimate, and that he can learn to do better going forward. I'm sorry you're going through this. I can definitely see and feel where you are coming from Admiral.
Share feelings? No one in the church ever listens, it is impossible to share or be close to anyone living in that fog. Best to be polite, and go about your life completely independent of any feelings for any of them.

It hasn't been my experience that no one in the church ever listens. In fact, I was in the church and I began to listen to others who had a faith crisis and it did sink in for me. I have had others who do actually listen. I'm not invalidating your experience. In your case I can definitely believe that no one in the church listens. It's probably the case for a lot of people. I do get what you are saying. I get that. And I do think what you are saying about independence is helpful and valid. However, for me, over time, my wife eventually began to listen. It did plant seeds that made a difference to her when she ended up having her own faith crisis. She said things that I said to her 10 years before and they did sink in. She just needed to have an experience that validated what I had been saying. And it happened in her case. I know it doesn't happen certainly in every case or even a majority of cases but I'm glad that I shared my feelings with her and that I still continued to have feelings for my wife who was orthodox. We tried to find common ground and not live totally separate lives. I think if we had. We would not be together today. But sometimes, you're right, that's what one has to do. Everybody is different.
Those who are "all-in", and I was there too ashamed to say, it is a mind-fog.

"She just needed to have an experience"

Experience seems to be the only thing that changes perspective, so talking/sharing - just added friction. I admit, my family - I have religious fanatics from more than one faith ... I can talk with them about the weather, about work, about kids /travel etc. Find it best to keep the peace, walk away from any controversial topics no one will change their mind on.

If you love someone, let them go. To me, any healthy relashionship is not dependent. Everyone should have their individual opinions, personal lives, support themselves etc.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Angel
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Re: Husband accepted Primary calling behind my back!

Post by Angel » Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:18 pm

AdmiralHoldo wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:53 pm
He told me that he made a conscious decision to hide it from me. I don't think that's okay.

And, again, this isn't just any calling. This is the calling that got me permanently blacklisted. The same people who decided I am not worthy to hold any calling again, ever, or give a talk or even pray in Relief Society, are the same people going to my husband and asking (telling) him to teach Primary.

It's not a betrayal on the level of him cheating on me, but it's a betrayal.
Definatly sucks.

Storytime.
My grandparents (not Mormon, never attended any church, only sane people in family), married 75 years. My grandmother's life revolved around grampa. Grampa dies, grandma - in her 90's - is finally free to find herself.

To me, stuff like this is an invitation to detach a little, and find yourself.

Let yourself be independent, let him be independent, a little independence is a good thing. Hugs to you!
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Re: Husband accepted Primary calling behind my back!

Post by Mormorrisey » Mon Jul 25, 2022 5:43 pm

AdmiralHoldo wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:53 pm
He told me that he made a conscious decision to hide it from me. I don't think that's okay.
And....that's the point. It's clearly about the calling, but not about the calling at the same time. It's about not communicating, and doing something the other person is not happy about, and hiding it. Doesn't matter what it is, it's bad marriage practice, coupled with trauma from a past experience of being blacklisted in the ward makes this a not good combination, and you have a right to be steamed.

Hopefully you guys can work this out. Mixed faith marriages are hard enough to begin with, without other problems creeping up too. Just my two cents, and feel free to discard it, but I would focus on the not telling you part the most, because that's not a great marriage habit to get in to, period, no matter what the secret is. When he is sufficiently sorry for that, you can work on the Primary calling part of the equation, and you'll be able to deal with that issue in a better way together. Just a suggestion.

Good luck!
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Re: Husband accepted Primary calling behind my back!

Post by dogbite » Mon Jul 25, 2022 5:50 pm

The hiding is no bueno

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alas
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Re: Husband accepted Primary calling behind my back!

Post by alas » Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:08 am

AdmiralHoldo wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:53 pm
He told me that he made a conscious decision to hide it from me. I don't think that's okay.

And, again, this isn't just any calling. This is the calling that got me permanently blacklisted. The same people who decided I am not worthy to hold any calling again, ever, or give a talk or even pray in Relief Society, are the same people going to my husband and asking (telling) him to teach Primary.

It's not a betrayal on the level of him cheating on me, but it's a betrayal.
He knew it would hurt you, and he did it anyway and lied about it. Yes, it is a betrayal. He put the church and what the church wants ahead of you, as if he is married to the church and not you. And, no, it’s not like him cheating on you with another woman, but it IS like him cheating on you. At least if he cheated on you with another woman, he would see it as disloyal. He would not be so blind to his own unfaithfulness. He cheated on you by putting the church before you. Just like cheating on you with another woman divides his loyalty, this divides his loyalty. You have a third party in your marriage and it is even harder to get rid of than that other woman would be.

So, yes, I think that you need to yell at him for not talking this over with you and respecting your feelings. I think that you need to draw some boundaries about the role of the church in your marriage and some boundaries about talking things over before doing something that you know will hurt the other person. But you know him and your marriage, so my opinion is not worth much.

Now, the hard reality is, you do have a third party in your marriage, just as I have that same third party in mine. I have to allow him to pay tithing on both of our incomes, although I would much rather put that money where it would do some good.

But I look at it the same way I do my in-laws. The church and my husband are kind of a package deal, just like when I married him I knew that his family is part of him. But we had to set up boundaries of what kind of family interaction are acceptable. Is his mother allowed to talk him into some multi marketing scheme? Do we have to change our plans and drive for two hours every time some family picnic is announced with no advanced notice? His family was intrusive, making demands and using heaps of guilt if we objected. My family was never the same kind of problem, but to save our marriage, I had to demand some boundaries with his family. Yes, they are part of him and he loves them, but we have to put each other first. Not his mother first, even though that is what she expects.

So, I see the church the same way. My hunny hubby loves the church. It is part of him. If I can’t live with that then it becomes a deal breaker. So, the trick is, do I love him enough to accept him and his baggage, and his baggage is his church, family, and history.

The church expects to be put first, just like my M I L did. But if that is a deal breaker for you, then it is up to you to tell him what your boundaries are. How can you live with him and allow him to be part of his church?

Do you want him to talk to you before accepting any calling? Do you want veto power over any calling he accepts? How do you want him to handle things like this in the future? Do you attend church with him? Are you allowed to, say, violate the WoW? Do you talk it over with him before making any changes regarding you position with the church?

If you need an example of “how would he feel” to get him to understand why what he did was wrong, try asking him how he would feel if you withdrew your church membership and didn’t tell him because you knew he would be unhappy. Secrets like this in marriage are never good because the spouse always finds out and then is hurt by both the lie and the hidden hurt. So, keeping secrets just doubles the hurt.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Husband accepted Primary calling behind my back!

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:22 am

How about no sex until he resigns his calling? :lol:
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DPRoberts
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Re: Husband accepted Primary calling behind my back!

Post by DPRoberts » Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:34 pm

The thing I am most attuned to is just how offensive it is to have other fallible human beings believe they can determine another's worthiness. That one is a hot button for me and was the basis for my last church-inspired serious disagreement with my wife. Let's see, you told primary children the truth. I suppose the ghost of Elder Packer was around to tell your local leadership that this truth wasn't useful. In an abundance of zeal they slapped the scarlet 'U' on you.

I am just restating what you have already said for the most part, but I just want you to know that I get it. Being judged like this is highly offensive, and then your DH adds insult to injury by giving them an easy escape from the consequences of their actions. Behind your back, no less. I feel the "ouch".

-DP
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest. -anon
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. -Max Born

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Hermey
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Re: Husband accepted Primary calling behind my back!

Post by Hermey » Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:02 pm

alas wrote:
Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:08 am
He knew it would hurt you, and he did it anyway and lied about it. Yes, it is a betrayal. He put the church and what the church wants ahead of you, as if he is married to the church and not you. And, no, it’s not like him cheating on you with another woman, but it IS like him cheating on you. At least if he cheated on you with another woman, he would see it as disloyal. He would not be so blind to his own unfaithfulness. He cheated on you by putting the church before you. Just like cheating on you with another woman divides his loyalty, this divides his loyalty. You have a third party in your marriage and it is even harder to get rid of than that other woman would be.

So, yes, I think that you need to yell at him for not talking this over with you and respecting your feelings. I think that you need to draw some boundaries about the role of the church in your marriage and some boundaries about talking things over before doing something that you know will hurt the other person. But you know him and your marriage, so my opinion is not worth much.

Now, the hard reality is, you do have a third party in your marriage, just as I have that same third party in mine. I have to allow him to pay tithing on both of our incomes, although I would much rather put that money where it would do some good.

But I look at it the same way I do my in-laws. The church and my husband are kind of a package deal, just like when I married him I knew that his family is part of him. But we had to set up boundaries of what kind of family interaction are acceptable. Is his mother allowed to talk him into some multi marketing scheme? Do we have to change our plans and drive for two hours every time some family picnic is announced with no advanced notice? His family was intrusive, making demands and using heaps of guilt if we objected. My family was never the same kind of problem, but to save our marriage, I had to demand some boundaries with his family. Yes, they are part of him and he loves them, but we have to put each other first. Not his mother first, even though that is what she expects.

So, I see the church the same way. My hunny hubby loves the church. It is part of him. If I can’t live with that then it becomes a deal breaker. So, the trick is, do I love him enough to accept him and his baggage, and his baggage is his church, family, and history.

The church expects to be put first, just like my M I L did. But if that is a deal breaker for you, then it is up to you to tell him what your boundaries are. How can you live with him and allow him to be part of his church?

Do you want him to talk to you before accepting any calling? Do you want veto power over any calling he accepts? How do you want him to handle things like this in the future? Do you attend church with him? Are you allowed to, say, violate the WoW? Do you talk it over with him before making any changes regarding you position with the church?

If you need an example of “how would he feel” to get him to understand why what he did was wrong, try asking him how he would feel if you withdrew your church membership and didn’t tell him because you knew he would be unhappy. Secrets like this in marriage are never good because the spouse always finds out and then is hurt by both the lie and the hidden hurt. So, keeping secrets just doubles the hurt.
This is a spot-on assessment.

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