I Find Myself Hoping Your Plane Crashes

[Linked]

Yesterday as we were walking out of church my TBM wife told me she was going to try to meet with the bishop to renew her year-expired temple recommend. (She had previously expressed interest in going to the temple and I told her I totally support her, and that I would get a recommend with her to keep up appearances if she wanted.) I told her we should probably figure out if she wants me to have one too before she goes in, or we may start getting unwanted attention as a project family. She took that as me telling her not to get the recommend (which I was saying, at least until we decide where we are going as a family), and was understandably frustrated. This sparked a conversation about where things are headed and brought lots of tears and sadness. A couple highlights were that me leading the kids astray would be the worst thing in her universe. She said that she has long since given up hope for happiness for herself and that she is hoping for happiness in the church for our kids. And she told me she found herself hoping that my plane would crash when I go on work trips, so that she could raise the kids in the church and all my friends and family could have a memory they could respect and love.

I can't stop thinking about how my own wife, the woman who sleeps next to me, wants me dead. I feel like this is a very clear message that we need to get away from each other. I am not sure if I am overreacting here. I should not be making this discussion public, but I am in a bad place and I don't know what to do or feel. I am extremely grateful that she was open and honest with me, it is fairly rare and I appreciate it. She doesn't seem to want to feel that way, but she feels that way, which is the most genuine way to feel. I feel hypocritical for thinking that this requires a big change when I have been trying to convince her that my disaffection, another life-shaking, genuine feeling, should not split us up. But isn't this different? She is hoping I die. I am merely hoping to get out from under the oppression of a rigid church. According to church teachings my desires are worse, so maybe that's where that is coming from.

Her feelings of hopelessness are not entirely from my disaffection, a large part of them come from the difficulties of life. Spending all her time caring for small children. Dealing with the Sisyphean task of keeping the house clean. Not having enough in our bank account. Not having a great relationship with her husband. I try to help. I make a decent salary. I am not great with our kids, but I spend time with them and watch them so she can do stuff if she wants to. I beg her not to worry so much about the house, but she wants a very clean house.

A couple months ago it really seemed like she had turned a corner, but apparently not. Yesterday I told her that I would like her to disaffect with me, just as she wishes I would re-affect. I haven't really tried or even offered to lead her down the rabbit hole out of respect for her beliefs. I am wondering if that would help the situation; break her shelf so she can get out of this world view that causes her to hope for my death. With the hopeless state she is in I worry that it would be too much though. Maybe it would be best to just walk away. But those are my kids, and I love them.

[Just This Guy]

That phase of life can be very difficult, even without religion bringing even more stress into a relationship.

Something that may be helpful.

1. Get some professional help. One or both of you may be suffering from depression from the sounds of things. A good councilor (non church) and medication can do wonders.
2. Even if you don't have full depression, Seasonal depression could be a factor mid winter. Get outside as much as you can on sunny days. If nothing else, letting the kids running off some energy will make your life a bit easier.
3. Find hobbies that do not revolve around the kids. You both need time to de-stress with something that you enjoy. Even if it means one person taking the kids for a few hours so the other can binge watch TV or sit down with an adult coloring book for a bit.

[20/20hind]

If she is having those types of thoughts I would get into counseling. Honestly, that is pretty messed up.

[Enoch Witty]

When I was Mormon, there was always a low-key level at which I longed for death. From the youngest age, I had been taught that after I died, I would get a perfect body, have perfect knowledge, and live in a perfect place. Compare that to the hardships and turmoil of real life, and it's easy to see how I put myself in this headspace. I was never suicidal, but even as a young (like, single-digit age young) child, I remember thinking, "I wish I could just die so I could go live with Heavenly Father." A huge part of these childhood thoughts was simple curiosity: what is the next life like? I really wanted to know!

My personal tangents aside, as a TBM, your wife probably doesn't realize how insensitive her comment was. If you were to die in a plane crash, you wouldn't really be dead, you'd just be waiting for her in the next life, presumably back to being a TBM because obviously everything will make sense when you've passed beyond the veil and have an understanding of all things. I think the majority of TBMs would have a hard time really empathizing with a more atheistic view of death (not that I'm ascribing such to you).

In a reversed sort of way, I somewhat identify with your wife. After taking out way too many student loans for useless degrees that have led to no job satisfaction, suffering chronic hand and arm pain that doctors have completely failed to identify much less relieve, and some other grim realizations about the realities of life, I often feel like I was raised in a bubble, given false expectations, and am now stuck to some extent by uninformed choices I made as a youth. (Despite how dark this sounds, I actually have a fairly positive outlook much of the time, and I am taking active steps to better my life, so don't go throwing a pity party just yet.) Much of this bubble was church-inflicted, and in my gloomier moments, I find myself thinking, "Well, it's too late for me to have the life I wanted, but I can make sure that my son is better prepared, better informed, and better advised than I was." (I have a lot of resentment for the whole "follow your dreams/interests and success will surely follow!" parenting style that was inflicted on us '90s kids.)

So that's where I identify with your wife. Divorce isn't the answer, obviously, as then you would have some amount of unfettered access to the kids without her there to supervise and no reason for you to hold back on your true feelings about the church. So, besides the two of you hoping that the other will join you in apostasy/belief, the only scenario where she gets to raise the kids as she is currently envisioning is if you die. And again, you dying isn't as severe or permanent a reality for her as it is for you, so she probably doesn't realize how hurtful her comment really was. I also don't know if it would be possible or even wise to try to help her understand how hurtful that comment was (if her shelf ever breaks, she'll realize then, I imagine).

All of this is not to say you should just brush off her comment and move on as if nothing happened. I think a lot of the recent advice in this forum regarding love languages and which expressions of love your wife best appreciates is valuable. Your instinct that you need to get away from each other could be right. But if you still love her and want to make it work, I think it's worthwhile to show an increase in love at this time, in various ways, to your kids as well as your wife. Show you are a kick-ass husband and father. If she responds well to it, that will show that she too wants to make the relationship work. If she withdraws and becomes cold, that could be a sign that the problems are more severe.

Good luck!

#NotATherapist
#NotADoctor
#OnlyMildlyCompetent

[MerrieMiss]

I am so sorry. Words can be so hurtful. I can't imagine the way you feel after hearing that.

That phase of life can be very difficult, even without religion bringing even more stress into a relationship.

Something that may be helpful.

1. Get some professional help. One or both of you may be suffering from depression from the sounds of things. A good councilor (non church) and medication can do wonders.
2. Even if you don't have full depression, Seasonal depression could be a factor mid winter. Get outside as much as you can on sunny days. If nothing else, letting the kids running off some energy will make your life a bit easier.
3. Find hobbies that do not revolve around the kids. You both need time to de-stress with something that you enjoy. Even if it means one person taking the kids for a few hours so the other can binge watch TV or sit down with an adult coloring book for a bit.

Everything here.

1. Both of you may benefit from counseling. I saw a therapist after my last kid was born and it helped immensely. I felt so inadequate as a mother, wife, woman - to talk to another human about this, to be validated by another person, to be told I didn't need to have a perfectly clean house - I needed someone to give me permission to take care of myself. I belonged to a church that planned my life and told me what to do - I did need someone to tell me that.

I was just thinking of this yesterday - I remember telling the therapist that I had to raise my kids in the church even though I didn't believe because I didn't know how to raise kids without it. I can laugh at that now, but at the time, I was serious. Raising a righteous family is all I was good for. It was the one thing I was supposed to do. If I couldn't do that, then I failed. I don't know your wife or your situation any more than you've told us, but I really think as the mother of young children she would benefit from talking to a non-judgmental, non-LDS therapist.

2. Regardless the season, getting outside always makes me feel better. fresh air, exercise, change of scenery, whatever it is, if I go outside, even for a walk through the park, it's a mood changer. Life doesn't seem so hopeless.

3. It's important to have your own hobbies/activities, but to have something together is important as well. This is something I need to work on in my marriage. The church is all we had in common, and with it gone, there's a lot of emptiness. Nothing is particularly bad, but there's nothing there either. I'm trying to start small. We used to have small traditions and rituals we did together before things got crazy with the kids. I'm trying to resurrect them or start new ones. We need something outside of us to bring us together.

[Just This Guy]

3. It's important to have your own hobbies/activities, but to have something together is important as well. This is something I need to work on in my marriage. The church is all we had in common, and with it gone, there's a lot of emptiness. Nothing is particularly bad, but there's nothing there either. I'm trying to start small. We used to have small traditions and rituals we did together before things got crazy with the kids. I'm trying to resurrect them or start new ones. We need something outside of us to bring us together.

One thing my DW and I enjoy together is photography. It actually kills several birds with one stone. It is a way to do something you enjoy that does not have to include the church. Nature photography gets you outside with all those added benefits. You don't have to spend much to get into it. Smart phones these days have some very good cameras built in and there are all sorts of free apps out there (ex Instagram) that allow you to play with in image. You can get into higher end camera, Super-zooms, & DSLR's if you want to later on when money is better.

It is also a cheap date. We can pack lunch and drive around looking for an interesting field or something else to take pictures of for only the cost of gas. When we get home, it is fun the look the shots we got and compare how we got them. Examine each others' techniques to see how we can do better.

[Korihor]

Take a deep breath, today will pass. I'm only speculating, but perhaps she really doesn't want your plane to crash.

She's upset by all this and if you simply "disappeared" it would solve one problem (in her world view) but she probably doesn't understand all of the aftermath.

Mrs Kori and I are going through something similar. As I like to say "same shit, different horse". Some days I don't think I/we can make it through and other days are better.

People fantasize all the time of crazy stuff that sounds good in their head but fail to understand all the aftermath. Unfortunately you're both probably extremely sensitive to anything the other says.

Take a deep breath and be the man/husband/father you want to be - what ever that is.

And if you find yourself having a really hard time, maybe you should try paying your tithing, reading your scriptures, saying your prayers and scheduling an appointment with the BP

[alas]

I don't think she really wants you dead. I think she just sees that as the only way to get you believing the "truth" and avoiding the embarrassment of having a non believing apostate spouse.

So, I think she is catastrophsizing your disaffection in the way the church teaches people to do, the kind of thinking that goes, "it would be better for you to come home from a mission dead than shamed as an unbeliever or sinner." (same thing, the unbelief or horrible sin)

Then you are interpreting her over reaction as if she was serious serious instead of locked into sick Mormon thinking.

So, she is overreacting and then you are over-reacting to her over-reaction.

Back up. Sit her down and ask her if she really meant that about wishing you were dead or if she was just feeling hopeless. Sure, you being dead would solve the problem of her being afraid of what other people think of you as an apostate. But in other ways it would make life much much harder. I think this feeling is honest, but only one side of the picture. It is the easy way out of a hard situation. She gets all kinds of love and sympathy from friends and family instead of being the pitied wife of a inactive non-priesthood-honoring man. But, when you think more seriously about that kind of thinking, it isn't what you really want.

Her feeling hopeless and angry at you are things you can deal with. If she is seriously wishing you dead, then you need to ask her about divorce, marriage counseling, and so on. But I don't really think it is time to panic.

Once when I had three small children, was trying to finish my college, had a part time job as internship, my military husband got orders for an overseas assignment. I had those feelings that I wished he would just go down in the plane on the way, rather than leave me to sell the house, two cars, get rid of the pets, finish up my degree by taking two hours over a full time load. (I had to get special permission to take more than 18 credit hours) finish my internship, and keep the kids happy during all of that chaos. Yeah, it would have been a lot easier to get rid of him as the problem, because I couldn't argue with the USAF about his orders just made my life IMPOSSIBLE. But really, I didn't wish him dead, I just wished myself out of the mess he put me in.

[Enoch Witty]

I don't think she really wants you dead. I think she just sees that as the only way to get you believing the "truth" and avoiding the embarrassment of having a non believing apostate spouse.

So, I think she is catastrophsizing your disaffection in the way the church teaches people to do, the kind of thinking that goes, "it would be better for you to come home from a mission dead than shamed as an unbeliever or sinner." (same thing, the unbelief or horrible sin)

Then you are interpreting her over reaction as if she was serious serious instead of locked into sick Mormon thinking.

So, she is overreacting and then you are over-reacting to her over-reaction.

Back up. Sit her down and ask her if she really meant that about wishing you were dead or if she was just feeling hopeless. Sure, you being dead would solve the problem of her being afraid of what other people think of you as an apostate. But in other ways it would make life much much harder. I think this feeling is honest, but only one side of the picture. It is the easy way out of a hard situation. She gets all kinds of love and sympathy from friends and family instead of being the pitied wife of a inactive non-priesthood-honoring man. But, when you think more seriously about that kind of thinking, it isn't what you really want.

Her feeling hopeless and angry at you are things you can deal with. If she is seriously wishing you dead, then you need to ask her about divorce, marriage counseling, and so on. But I don't really think it is time to panic.

Once when I had three small children, was trying to finish my college, had a part time job as internship, my military husband got orders for an overseas assignment. I had those feelings that I wished he would just go down in the plane on the way, rather than leave me to sell the house, two cars, get rid of the pets, finish up my degree by taking two hours over a full time load. (I had to get special permission to take more than 18 credit hours) finish my internship, and keep the kids happy during all of that chaos. Yeah, it would have been a lot easier to get rid of him as the problem, because I couldn't argue with the USAF about his orders just made my life IMPOSSIBLE. But really, I didn't wish him dead, I just wished myself out of the mess he put me in.

This is great analysis. Your comments are continually fantastic.

[MerrieMiss]

As always, alas has great advice.

I was in a really bad relationship in college. It was abusive and I was convinced (sick Mormon thinking) he was the one and we were planning to get married. On a break home I asked my mom if it was normal to wish that my husband would die right after the wedding. She said it was not normal. Thanks mom!

Yeah, it would have been a lot easier to get rid of him as the problem, because I couldn't argue with the USAF about his orders just made my life IMPOSSIBLE. But really, I didn't wish him dead, I just wished myself out of the mess he put me in.

The thing is, and I don’t think your wife really wants you dead (although I wanted my fiancée/boyfriend out of my life for sure), I just wanted to get out of the mess I was in without being responsible for, or taking the effort, to make the change. If my fiancée died, then in my mind, all my problems were over. As a bonus, I’d even have all my ordinance work done and I wouldn’t have to marry anyone ever again. It was seriously messed up thinking. Instead of taking the gamble that I could get married and God would take that man out my life, I broke up with him. I moved away. I left and I almost didn’t finish college because of it. It was hard and difficult but I needed to take action.

Having you die in a crash is a fantasy that for her (and the kids?) solves the mess you are both in, without having to do any of the difficult work to make the marriage work. I think she’s frustrated and that life has disappointed her. I felt that way a few years back – I did everything the church asked and I was still miserable. It was the beginning of my shelf collapsing; it could be hers too.

I know this doesn’t make the sting of the words any easier. Some things are best thought and never said.

[Linked]

Thank you all for the thoughtful responses. My wife certainly wishes she could get out of the problems I have caused for her. My death would not bring her joy, simply relief. It's a clean solution to the problem. She wouldn't care if I lived a happily apostate life if it didn't affect her so direly. She might even be happy for me. For a TBM she is not very judgmental.

As for her being serious, she is serious. That's why I'm struggling with it so much. Our marriage is civil, but there's not a lot of love there. We try, but we seem to love past each other. I've started to tell her that my actions are to show I love her when I see she takes something the wrong way. But that's fairly condescending and that makes her feel less respected.

Today will pass, but it keeps happening. I'm wondering if this should be the straw. And if not, what should be?

And if you find yourself having a really hard time, maybe you should try paying your tithing, reading your scriptures, saying your prayers and scheduling an appointment with the BP

I always wondered why there weren't more reactivation efforts on here, Kori has just been BRTing this whole time!

I watch the kids one night a week so my wife can go do one activity, maybe I'll do a second night so she can just decompress. We also started a chore list to help her with the clean house issues. Funny story, we teach primary and our oldest son is in sharing time with us. One week the teacher asked a question about what we could do to be kind, and my son responded "We could help mom out around the house, because she has to do EVERYTHING." All the adults in the room immediately looked at me, and I played along, hanging my head in shame. We had been trying to show our son why he should clean up more, and one of the things we told him was that it helps mom who does everything around the house.

We try to have together activities, but they never seem to have any staying power. My wife likes recipes and I like underlying principles, so we get frustrated with each other in a lot activities (Cooking, photography, board games). And we've been trying for a long time. At some point the fact that you have to try so hard is a bad sign, right?

Thanks again for the thoughts and comments!

[Red Ryder]

Take her with you on your next business trip.

That should convince her to recant.

[StarbucksMom]

Linked, I am sorry. From your posts over the last few months I have gathered that you are willing to admit you're not perfect, and that you have really tried to make your marriage work. I don't have a ton of info to go on, but I wanted to say that if my husband told me he wished I would die, I think I would be done. A marriage shouldn't be that awful that you actually dream of your spouse dying.
It should be the opposite-she should wake up scared because she dreamed something bad happened to you and then feel immense relief you are ok. And she should be saying a little prayer when you leave on a trip that you will be safe--both in her personal prayers and with your children.

[Korihor]

I always wondered why there weren't more reactivation efforts on here, Kori has just been BRTing this whole time!

You think I was just playing a game? Get your ass back in the pews!!!

I like the idea of giving her an additional night off as a way to decompress, but the spirit is telling me there's more.

Although extremely challenging to do with little ones in the picture, maybe try to schedule a date night with her instead of an extra night away. What the heck to I know, I'm struggling with the same stuff so my advice is probably wrong.
I don't think she needs more time away as much as she needs time with you.

Here's my suggestion, modify it however you will. Get a babysitter for the kids lined up. Tell Mrs Linked that you would like to take her on a date and you have tentatively scheduled a babysitter. As long as this is all good with her, take her on simple date.

NOTE - no movies, nothing expensive. You could even make it burger king, just some quiet alone time. She doesn't need to be wined and dined, just some comfort activity, food and conversation.

Also, it will probably be hard to get conversation started, the first few dates will probably be awkward. But start spending time together so she can see your still human.

[MalcolmVillager]

Linked. I feel for you. This is real, and very vulnerable to speak of "publicly". I am so "grateful" for the many wise and kind responses you have received here. I am not sure I can add to what has been said. All great advice. She wants to problem to go away. Don't we all. Don't take it personal. If she really wanted you dead she would not have told you.

Double down on your love and commitment to her and the family for a bit. Talk (maybe with a counselor) a lot. Spend time together.

You will get through it!

PM if you want to talk on the phone sometime.

[Brent]

Wow, you're better man than I. I would have just perked up and said, "Well, maybe I'll get cancer and you can savor the moments".

Pro help. Get Pro Help.

[Red Ryder]

Linked, I am sorry. From your posts over the last few months I have gathered that you are willing to admit you're not perfect, and that you have really tried to make your marriage work. I don't have a ton of info to go on, but I wanted to say that if my husband told me he wished I would die, I think I would be done. A marriage shouldn't be that awful that you actually dream of your spouse dying.
It should be the opposite-she should wake up scared because she dreamed something bad happened to you and then feel immense relief you are ok. And she should be saying a little prayer when you leave on a trip that you will be safe--both in her personal prayers and with your children.

In some way it sounds like she is mourning the death of the old you. That if you were to die, it would be easier for everyone to remember the Mormon Link rather than you continue to live and become a filthy dirty heroine crazed apostate who watches porn while eating his cornflakes with 2% milk.

My wife has eluded to having similar thoughts but in the context of my spiritual death. I've also read over the years about a few situations where the believing spouse wants to pursue a temple divorce while remaining civilly married. So in times like this where the believing spouse's world falls apart, sometimes rational thinking goes out the window.

Last, I wish I could say these are unique issues but unfortunately they are not. The church is so embedded into our spouses that when we disbelieve it nearly kills them.

PM me for my number if you want. I'm always willing to listen and talk.

[Mormorrisey]

Just to echo what everyone has put here, and also an unfortunate result of direct experience. The TBM is so wrapped up in the church mindset, that it is literally spiritual death for the one who doesn't share the hive mentality - and they simply lack the rational thinking skills to deal with that reality. What one hopes for, is that the believing spouse will eventually seperate dogma from behaviour; that you're still the same guy, you just don't believe the same things. They will still mourn the old you, and that's okay, but they need to start accepting the reality of the situation. Some can, some won't. Jury is still out on Sister M, and like everyone, has her good days and bad days. I try to just roll with the punches, even if she says some really nasty things as a result of her frustration. But then again, so do I.

At this point, I will just send you some internet empathy and wish you well on this journey.

[Raylan Givens]

Ouch.

I have had the thought after a year of marriage, of what it would be like without DW (if she was in an accident).

Not a good path to go down. I realized that is was feeling controlled and manipulated, and I was tired of it. My DW is incredibly brilliant and analytical (we joke about her being Asbergers), and she is a porcupine, who is not passive in her talk at all. I am very passive and avoid contention. This is a tough combo.

I realized she was not controlling me and I needed to see past her tone and realize that in her family this is how they talk. I realized that I was dancing around everything, I now avoid that. She also promised to ask more questions before giving her opinion. It has been great since then.

long story, keep talking, it takes time to figure it out...this might last a little bit of time, she will see through it.

Keep on keeping on.

[Not Buying It]

It is so odd to me that you are going through all this emotional turmoil, your wife is fantasizing about your death in a plane crash, and I'm stuck in a never-ending game of "let's pretend I believe all this BS" because almost 200 years ago some guy figured out he had enough charisma to fool people into giving him money, sex, and power. The world is a strange, strange place.