Convinced the Q15 know the truth

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Mackman
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Convinced the Q15 know the truth

Post by Mackman » Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:17 pm

I was recently on you tube just browsing when I came across a video about a deathbed confession from Bruce R. Mcconkie. I can't recall who The friend of Bruce was but he told him he was afraid to cross over to the other side because as a quorum we were not honest with the people meaning church members. To me it's a smoking gun that the leadership knows the truth from the BOM to the rest of the B.S. they have spewed for decades from the highest positions in the church. Perhaps someone who is more internet savvy can provide a link. I know it's about 10 years old.

dogbite
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Re: Convinced the Q15 know the truth

Post by dogbite » Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:28 pm

FOAF

Friend of a Friend. Classic sign of an urban legend.

Now yes, I think the q15 knows. But it is only my opinion.

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Angel
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Re: Convinced the Q15 know the truth

Post by Angel » Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:34 pm

“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Not Buying It
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Re: Convinced the Q15 know the truth

Post by Not Buying It » Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:48 am

Oh, I don't know that someone as arrogant as Bruce McConkie is capable of the self-examination a deathbed confession would require. I'm skeptical.

As for the Q15 knowing, I think they know and they don't. They know the Church doesn't work the way most members think it does, they know there are some serious historical/doctrinal/policy issues they have no idea how to resolve, they know they haven't seen Jesus and don't confer with angels and all of that. They know the world of Mormonism isn't as magical as they let people believe.

But you are talking about some people with huge egos who never admit when they are wrong, who have massive incentives for continuing to believe, who constantly get an ego boost whenever huge crowds lap up their every word, who are reinforced all the time by other people telling them how amazing they are, who have been carefully hand picked for their Church-brokeness, who have the psychological reinforcement of years of telling members and themselves how incredibly true the Church is, and who probably really believe they are doing God's work in spite of knowing how sausage is really made. They hear about how special they are all the time, I have no doubt they believe it, and by extension the Church must be true.

They know and they don't. They compartmentalize. And they are all caught up in something much bigger and more powerful than they are, but also something that provides them huge rewards for being where they are - they have every reason to keep convincing themselves it is true.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

Mackman
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Re: Convinced the Q15 know the truth

Post by Mackman » Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:24 am

Well said Angel exactly what I wanted to convey to all .

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Not Buying It
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Re: Convinced the Q15 know the truth

Post by Not Buying It » Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:43 am

Angel wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:34 pm
This one?
https://youtu.be/qI4nsngvcGw
Well, keep in mind the source of the story is George P. Lee. This George P. Lee:

https://www.deseret.com/1994/10/11/1913 ... abuse-case

I guess I am not convinced by a story whose provenance is George P. Lee to Ogden Kraut to Kevin Kraut.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Red Ryder
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Re: Convinced the Q15 know the truth

Post by Red Ryder » Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:02 pm

They know they’ve never seen or spoken to Jesus or God.

Everything else is irrelevant to me.

Have you actually spoken or seen God or Jesus in your role as prophet, seer, and revelatory? Yes or No?
“I switched baristas” —Lady Gaga

Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

Mackman
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Re: Convinced the Q15 know the truth

Post by Mackman » Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:09 pm

I take that back it was actually not buying it that spoke what I wanted to convey but Angel provided the link to the you tube video. I agree that they are worthless as prophets seers and revelators if they have not seen or spoken to God or Jesus !!!!

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crazyhamster
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Re: Convinced the Q15 know the truth

Post by crazyhamster » Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:50 pm

Not Buying It wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:48 am
Oh, I don't know that someone as arrogant as Bruce McConkie is capable of the self-examination a deathbed confession would require. I'm skeptical.

As for the Q15 knowing, I think they know and they don't. They know the Church doesn't work the way most members think it does, they know there are some serious historical/doctrinal/policy issues they have no idea how to resolve, they know they haven't seen Jesus and don't confer with angels and all of that. They know the world of Mormonism isn't as magical as they let people believe.

But you are talking about some people with huge egos who never admit when they are wrong, who have massive incentives for continuing to believe, who constantly get an ego boost whenever huge crowds lap up their every word, who are reinforced all the time by other people telling them how amazing they are, who have been carefully hand picked for their Church-brokeness, who have the psychological reinforcement of years of telling members and themselves how incredibly true the Church is, and who probably really believe they are doing God's work in spite of knowing how sausage is really made. They hear about how special they are all the time, I have no doubt they believe it, and by extension the Church must be true.

They know and they don't. They compartmentalize. And they are all caught up in something much bigger and more powerful than they are, but also something that provides them huge rewards for being where they are - they have every reason to keep convincing themselves it is true.
Oh, I think this is it exactly. It's why the whole "Lying for the Lord" is still a thing - they are willing to bend/break the truth and sustain the status quo for what they consider the greater good. They are insulated from the reality that said "greater good" is actually toxic for a large portion of their following.

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Hagoth
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Re: Convinced the Q15 know the truth

Post by Hagoth » Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:30 pm

And there's a not-on-my-watch as$$-coverimg mentality. Nobody wants to be the guy who disappoints his adoring, highly privileged family, not to mention millions of worshipful admirers and a legacy of worshipful remberance by being the guy to burst any bubbles. Just throw another log on the fire and let se poor schmuck in the next generation deal with the fallout.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Angel
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Re: Convinced the Q15 know the truth

Post by Angel » Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:10 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:43 am
Angel wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:34 pm
This one?
https://youtu.be/qI4nsngvcGw
Well, keep in mind the source of the story is George P. Lee. This George P. Lee:

https://www.deseret.com/1994/10/11/1913 ... abuse-case

I guess I am not convinced by a story whose provenance is George P. Lee to Ogden Kraut to Kevin Kraut.
Thanks for the heads up.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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stealthbishop
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Re: Convinced the Q15 know the truth

Post by stealthbishop » Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:52 am

I'm really skeptical about this story.

Do they know though?

MY POV:

I think they do have some recognition of the problems in the church on some level to one degree or another depending on the person. However, much like our spouses and other family and friends who also may know some things or may have even read the CES letter etc, there are enormous psychological/cognitive barriers to those things sinking in or becoming relevant.

We all generally see the world as we are and I think it can be inaccurate to project an ExMo or PostMo mindset on to the Q15. I think they are very much like my wife was up until a little over a year ago. They see the fruits of the church as being overall demonstrably good in their lives and for practically everyone they see and meet. The rotten fruit is the rare exception from their perception and they discard it and dismiss it. They know the bath water is "a little" dirty and they have absolutely no intention of throwing out the baby.
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

-Depeche Mode

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alas
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Re: Convinced the Q15 know the truth

Post by alas » Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:19 am

They know on some level just as those who voted for Trump know he lies constantly and that you can’t trust a thing he says, but they believe him anyway. We had even had a Trump supporter come here and say outright that he knows Trump lies, then turn around and defend the very things he knows Trump lied about. Over and over. I have talked to several Trump supporters, and they know the man’s a crook, but somehow they convince themselves that fact is fine because “so is everybody else”. They ALWAYS have a justification.

So, believers can go through the CES letter and argue each point, know very well their argument is weak, or no argument at all, and still convince themselves that the church is perfect.

But members go around with a chip on their shoulder about the church. When I saw Boy-d K Packer pound the pulpit and yell, “the Holy Ghost is male” over and over, I realized that little boy Boyd is scared. Very scared. He is terrified that he is wrong about EVERYTHING.

He wouldn’t be that scared about it if he didn’t at least suspect that he is wrong about everything. To stand up and say that intellectuals are one of the worst enemies of the church, that says he knows the church cannot stand up to the truth. He knows the church cannot stand up to the church.

Holland with his “I’m not a dodo” talk. Yeah, he realized that standing there and not having even half decent answers to the problems about the church made his sound stupid. So, he stands up for himself by insisting he isn’t stupid, rather than finding the right answers to those questions that make him feel stupid. Yeah, I would say that is some denial right there.

I could go through several other GAs who at some point showed everyone the chip on their shoulder. They don’t even have the good grace to admit they don’t know.

Why do apologists get angry, and attach the messenger. Why do the GAs stand up in conference and call us lazy learners, when they know that there are not good explanations for horses in the BoM, when they know the DNA is pretty good proof there were no Hebrews in the Americas? We are not the lazy learners, they are, and they know it, but won’t admit it.

It was my mom saw plenty of evidence that my dad was sexually abusing me. But her brain just would not go there. Denial. Classic denial

So, they know but refuse to know.

Mackman
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Re: Convinced the Q15 know the truth

Post by Mackman » Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:03 am

Thanks alas so well said !!! You always have a way of making things seem obvious. It is my take all 15 are bigger liars than even Trump !!!! Well I'm not so sure about that but big liars anyway .

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alas
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Re: Convinced the Q15 know the truth

Post by alas » Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:05 pm

Mackman wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:03 am
Thanks alas so well said !!! You always have a way of making things seem obvious. It is my take all 15 are bigger liars than even Trump !!!! Well I'm not so sure about that but big liars anyway .
Well, one difference, Trump often lies when he knows full good and well it is a lie. He is a pathological liar. The main people church leader lie to is themselves. I think Church leaders are more like Trumps followers rather than Trump himself. They just won’t seriously examine what they kinda know. So, they hear something, and totally reject it rather than thinking through “what does this mean?” If they thought about what it could mean, then they just can’t deal with it. So, rather than know truth that they just don’t want to deal with, they just turn their brain off.

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stealthbishop
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Re: Convinced the Q15 know the truth

Post by stealthbishop » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:29 pm

alas wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:05 pm
Mackman wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:03 am
Thanks alas so well said !!! You always have a way of making things seem obvious. It is my take all 15 are bigger liars than even Trump !!!! Well I'm not so sure about that but big liars anyway .
Well, one difference, Trump often lies when he knows full good and well it is a lie. He is a pathological liar. The main people church leader lie to is themselves. I think Church leaders are more like Trumps followers rather than Trump himself. They just won’t seriously examine what they kinda know. So, they hear something, and totally reject it rather than thinking through “what does this mean?” If they thought about what it could mean, then they just can’t deal with it. So, rather than know truth that they just don’t want to deal with, they just turn their brain off.
And this is how my wife was for the past 10-12 years after my faith crisis. I would bring things up and she would just dismiss it or say that's too bad or give the church the benefit of the doubt. It was really frustrating. Her desire to hold on to the church and her faith and her positive experiences in the church was stronger than the facts connected to the problems. She would admit it on some level but it didn't sink in very deep. Denial. Dismissal. Minimizing. It's hard to break through and I think it would be even harder for a GA.
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

-Depeche Mode

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