Is there value in clergy/penitent privilege?

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Linked
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Is there value in clergy/penitent privilege?

Post by Linked » Tue Aug 30, 2022 8:55 am

With the terrible abuse story from Arizona in the news the harm of clergy/penitent privilege is clear. Is there any value in clergy/penitent privilege?

I think the logic goes something like, a penitent sinner who might seek help from their clergy will not seek that help if they know the clergy might tell the authorities. It is assumed that a penitent sinner who seeks help from their clergy will reform, at least some percent of the time. So if there is no clergy/penitent privilege then there will be fewer reformed sinners, hurting both the sinner and their future victims. In Arizona the abuser neither reformed nor were the future victims protected.

I wonder how accurate that logic is. Would penitent sinners still seek help from clergy even without clergy/penitent privilege? Does help from clergy increase the rate of reform among penitent sinners?

Where it can go off the rails is when the penitent person's rights override the victim(s)'s. This was clearly the case in what happened in Arizona. The victim's rights to not be abused were ignored in favor of the father's right to clergy/penitent privlege.

It can also go off the rails if it gives the penitent person a sense that they have made things right when they have not. For example, a bishop may extend forgiveness to someone who does not seek or receive forgiveness from the person they harmed. This happened to a friend of mine who had lies spread about him which caused him major problems in our ward. The person who spread the lies felt bad about it and told my friend about it years later, but said that he had worked it out with the bishop so everything was fine. But it wasn't fine with my friend.

Thoughts?
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alas
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Re: Is there value in clergy/penitent privilege?

Post by alas » Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:34 am

For sins that have no victim, or the victim is God or the church, I think it is fine for the church to be granting forgiveness. But the church cannot forgive on behalf of the victim, and what about restitution? So, I think there is something basically wrong with the whole thing about confessing to clergy to begin with for a lot of sins.

Now, if the clergy hold the person accountable to all those they have hurt, and insist of full accountability and restitution before granting forgiveness, then it might be different. Consider if the father in the abuse case had been held accountable. He would have been reported right off the bat.

But holding the sinner accountable to those he/she hurt doesn’t work for the church. And the church cares about the church, not the victims of sin. See, when the church grants forgiveness to the sinner, it ties the sinner to the church with gratitude for forgiving them. And it is much easier for the sinner not to have to make restitution to those they hurt. Nice to get forgiveness without all the hard work of confessing to those they hurt and then making up for all the damage done. Much easier to confess to a neutral party, such as clergy.

So, it works great for the sinner who wants absolution (what the church grants is not forgiveness because that comes from the person who was hurt) and it works for the church because it makes sinners grateful and willing to give to the church. It just doesn’t do a damned thing for the victims of sin.

So, if the church was making the sinner work toward forgiveness, then it would hold them accountable and report to police in the case of any sin/crime against a child. But obviously the church wants to grant absolution, not forgiveness. It wants to do what is good for it, not victims of sin.

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Re: Is there value in clergy/penitent privilege?

Post by blazerb » Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:44 am

The more I think about it, I think that clergy-penitent privilege may be actively harmful to society. As in your last example, people could use confession as a way to ease the burden of guilt rather than as a step to being a better person or fixing a harm done. In the case in Arizona, I'm guessing that the rapist felt much better after confiding to the bishop. He had no intention of stopping his behavior let alone facing the legal and economic consequences of his actions. In this case, it is possible that the confession stopped the guilty party from doing the right thing. The guilt had been spread around, if that makes sense, making it easier for the man to continue abusing his children. After all, if the bishop was not going to tell anyone, why should the rapist feel that would be necessary. Church policy appears to discourage bishops from even asking serious offenders to turn themselves in.

I would be curious if there are any studies on the impact of clergy-penitent privilege on the health of a society. I admit I could be totally off, but the assertions from the church and its defenders don't seem to have any data behind them, either. They just don't want to admit it.

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alas
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Re: Is there value in clergy/penitent privilege?

Post by alas » Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:13 am

blazerb wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:44 am
The more I think about it, I think that clergy-penitent privilege may be actively harmful to society. As in your last example, people could use confession as a way to ease the burden of guilt rather than as a step to being a better person or fixing a harm done. In the case in Arizona, I'm guessing that the rapist felt much better after confiding to the bishop. He had no intention of stopping his behavior let alone facing the legal and economic consequences of his actions. In this case, it is possible that the confession stopped the guilty party from doing the right thing. The guilt had been spread around, if that makes sense, making it easier for the man to continue abusing his children. After all, if the bishop was not going to tell anyone, why should the rapist feel that would be necessary. Church policy appears to discourage bishops from even asking serious offenders to turn themselves in.

I would be curious if there are any studies on the impact of clergy-penitent privilege on the health of a society. I admit I could be totally off, but the assertions from the church and its defenders don't seem to have any data behind them, either. They just don't want to admit it.
I used to volunteer for suicide prevention/crisis intervention hot lines. I did it in Florida and then in Utah. In both states we had at least one dude that I knew about who would call the line. The perpetrator in Florida called about an hour after abusing his step kid. “Oh, I’m such a pervert. How can I stop myself from doing this” bla bla bla. Apparently his wife had something she went to on Wednesday afternoons leaving him alone with step daughter. Every week, same damned thing. The pervert in Utah called on whichever night, asking for help not to abuse the kid, but every god damned week, he hung up and abused the kid. That perp was a live in boy friend and again, apparently the mother of the child left him alone with the child one night a week.

All this was before we had any ability to know the number the guy called from, so we couldn’t report them.

But, it was exactly what you are talking about. The perp used it to reduce his guilt. At least he could tell himself he was trying to stop, but the temptation was just too great and it was just beyond is ability, so he wasn’t a pervert after all, because he wanted to stop, but that kid was just too sexy and seductive, for a three or four year old. It was a way of maintains his self worth and still not changing his behavior.

When I was a counselor in a perpetrators therapy/support group, there was one guy who confessed to the police thinking that if he confessed, he would be not charged because it would prove he was trying to stop. He was rather unhappy that the police charged him with a crime, told his wife, and he ended up in jail. Like that wasn’t supposed to happen. He really expected the cops to do the same thing his bishop had done.

These guys confess to reduce guilt so they can keep doing it. But bishops hear the guilt and think it is real instead of part of the game.

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A New Name
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Re: Is there value in clergy/penitent privilege?

Post by A New Name » Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:39 pm

CES does not think there is any value to clergy/penitent privilege. They now require all new BYU employees to sign away those rights, allowing the bishop to tell BYU anything he is told during confession as part of his/her yearly evaluation.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Is there value in clergy/penitent privilege?

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Aug 30, 2022 4:35 pm

A New Name wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:39 pm
CES does not think there is any value to clergy/penitent privilege. They now require all new BYU employees to sign away those rights, allowing the bishop to tell BYU anything he is told during confession as part of his/her yearly evaluation.
I saw that article.

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alas
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Re: Is there value in clergy/penitent privilege?

Post by alas » Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:43 am

A New Name wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:39 pm
CES does not think there is any value to clergy/penitent privilege. They now require all new BYU employees to sign away those rights, allowing the bishop to tell BYU anything he is told during confession as part of his/her yearly evaluation.
But of course. The unrighteousness of BYU professors is more important than the sexual abuse of a child. One must be reported promptly, while there is plenty of time to work with the other to get them to see the error of their ways. One must be reported promptly to protect innocent BYU students from false doctrine, while the other, (shrugs) no harm done I guess. One is important enough to violate confidentiality, while the other just doesn’t reach that level of importance. One risks a young person’s testimony, but the other? (Shrugs)

This is all the proof that the church really does not believe in clergy penitent privilege, it just wants to look good in the press. It is also all the proof you need to know that the church values a male sexual perpetrator more than they value a female child. It is not REALLY about keeping confessions confidential. I am not sure what the H it is about and I don’t think the church know’s either. Keeping confessions confidential when and only when it is the church’s best interest to do so, and violating confidentiality when it is in the church’s best interest to do so. Yeah, that last idea, what is in the church’s best interest is the one and only thing it cares about.

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Re: Is there value in clergy/penitent privilege?

Post by stealthbishop » Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:56 am

I was listening to Radio West and they were talking about this issue and had some Catholic perspectives on it. I get it. We have lawyer-client privilege. We have spousal privilege. The clergy-penitent relationship goes back to around 300-400 C.E. in Catholicism. I understand that for Catholics, confession is an actual sacrament or essential ordinance for them. I understand the issue of freedom of religion. I understand that there may be a spiritual benefit for many. But some states such as Illinois and Massachusetts, irregardless of all that, require clergy to report child abuse and I am damn sure the K-M hotline tells an LDS bishop in those states that they must report it. Checks and balances. I think more states are going to go in the direction of Illinois and Mass. Horror stories like this will also continue to erode the confidence of people in their religious institutions and many will continue to leave as a result. My own experience with LDS confession is that it has been a net harm in my life. I wish I had never confessed anything to LDS bishops in my life.
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Re: Is there value in clergy/penitent privilege?

Post by Linked » Wed Aug 31, 2022 11:01 am

stealthbishop wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:56 am
My own experience with LDS confession is that it has been a net harm in my life. I wish I had never confessed anything to LDS bishops in my life.
I agree. Working with the bishop was never particularly helpful.

I think the whole mormon way of repentance screwed me up too. There is so much weight put on getting forgiveness from God for yourself, that is the entire point of the process, and not enough weight on avoiding and mitigating harm to others. Restitution is taught, but it is taught as a way to help yourself get forgiven more than as a way to help those hurt. I feel like I am learning more now from Alas about how to really seek restitution than I ever did in church.
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Re: Is there value in clergy/penitent privilege?

Post by Linked » Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:15 pm

In the latest article from Michael Rezendes and the AP they quote the lawyer who handled the calls from the bishops in the Arizona abuse story who defends the need for clergy-penitent privilege.
Without that assurance of secrecy, troubled people will not confide in their clergy. Secrecy is essential to the privilege, it encourages full disclosure without fear of unauthorized disclosure.
I can see the logic, but I'd be interested to know the net impact on victims if clergy took a hardline stance of doing whatever is in the victims immediate best interest. Report the criminals, help impacted spouses get their family away from abusers, testify against them in trial, etc. I suspect it wouldn't be any worse than the current cover ups, and it would sure feel right.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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