YW General President's Misleading Faith Promoting Experience of Her Toddler Grandson's Death

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alas
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Re: YW General President's Misleading Faith Promoting Experience of Her Toddler Grandson's Death

Post by alas » Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:34 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:30 am
stealthbishop wrote:
Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:31 pm
I have thought about it that way too but for her to share this story so often in public is such a risk. Does she not know that there is a public record of the circumstances of her grandson's death?!
There seems to be a tradition of just accepting what is said in a formal church setting as truth. It would be disloyal to reject or, God forbid, actively research the claims of one speaking in authority.

I'm sure Nelson must know pilots and airlines keep records of aircraft malfunctions, but he also knows that anyone who actually goes to the effort of doing enough research to determine that a flaming death spiral was really a rattling bolt, and then publicly talks about it, will be treated like an agent Satan seeking to destroy the church by good, believing members, and therefore not to be trusted. I can't imagine how Nelson thought he could get away with embellishing the story of the home intrusion in Africa to the point that even devoted followers felt the need to come forward with the truth. I hear people telling stories in church that are obviously not true, or are heavily embellished or modified, and I think there must be something in our makeup that tells us if we tell a story in a way that makes us or someone else feel the spirit, the story is transformed and validated as true in its own way.
My husband has embellished stories to be more spiritual. Things like the baby has been crying for 34 hours straight. Already been to the doctor and prescribed medicine. Dad has spent 12 hours at work, leaving Mom alone with screaming child and has just slept 8 hours. Mom is so exhausted she is tense and is holding the baby like she is ready to strangle it. But Dad who has just got up after sleeping 8 hours after his 12 hour work shift and is fresh and rested, gives Mom who has now been up with screaming exhausted child for some 34 hours a break to finally get some sleep. Mom gives baby a dose of the medicine and some aspirin because it is time and then goes to bed. Dad uses his priesthood and baby finally settles down after another hour. The fresh and relaxed caregiver who can finally treat baby calmly has nothing to do with it. The fact that this baby always screamed when Mom was upset has nothing to do with it. The fresh dose of medicine and 34 hours without sleep have nothing to do with it. The antibiotics kicking in after 24 hours after the doc have nothing to do with it. It is all the priesthood blessing. When I heard this story in his testimony a few years later, it was all I could do not to laugh out loud. I felt like standing up and yelling, “best example ever of why MOTHERS need priesthood.”

So, I think some embellishment is normal among faith promoting stories.

Anyway, maybe this niggles at her brain the same way it does mine. I worked enough child protective services as a social worker to know that often after a brain injury the child goes to sleep. You know, the “don’t let the child sleep after a concussion” thing they always tell parents. Then as the injured area bleeds, it puts pressure on the brain. The child wakes up crying and mom tries a few things to figure out why child is crying, then realizes something is wrong, maybe child stops breathing and mom shakes it to make it breath, and Mom takes child into emergency. Doctors realize brain injury cannot be accidental and blame mom. But then start to realize mom does not have the upper body strength to shake child or hit child hard enough with bare fists and there is no sign of blunt force with an object. There is too much reasonable doubt that mom did it. But the child was asleep, then mom was only one with child, so everyone thinks “mom did it.” They don’t think back to before the child went to bed, when dad or someone else was caring for child. I think maybe she suspects her own son and just can’t deal. I mean, *I* suspect her son, because the mom doesn’t have the upper body strength to shake a toddler that hard. Not an infant with big head and weak neck, but a toddler.

(I had one case of a shaken toddler, that mom was loud about the father being alone with child the evening before she rushed child to emergency. Dad was charged. Child lived with permanent brain injury)

The whole thing reminds me of something one of my therapists told me. A young woman was raped and murdered and his client couldn’t deal with the meaninglessness of the whole thing, so client twisted it into some spiritual meaning. And my therapist understood that it helped with the grief, but it drove him a bit nuts that client had twisted it into a spiritual experience when it was horrific. Our minds balk at meaningless horror.

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Linked
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Re: YW General President's Misleading Faith Promoting Experience of Her Toddler Grandson's Death

Post by Linked » Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:49 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:30 am
I hear people telling stories in church that are obviously not true, or are heavily embellished or modified, and I think there must be something in our makeup that tells us if we tell a story in a way that makes us or someone else feel the spirit, the story is transformed and validated as true in its own way.
alas wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:34 am
My husband has embellished stories to be more spiritual.
I was told to embellish stories when speaking publicly to make them more interesting in an MBA public speaking class. Maybe that's where the embellishments come from, trying to make their talks a little less boring. Which is fine when you are telling a fishing story to entertain someone. But when a lie sparks the feeling that you tell people testifies of truth, that is problematic.
alas wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:34 am
The whole thing reminds me of something one of my therapists told me. A young woman was raped and murdered and his client couldn’t deal with the meaninglessness of the whole thing, so client twisted it into some spiritual meaning. And my therapist understood that it helped with the grief, but it drove him a bit nuts that client had twisted it into a spiritual experience when it was horrific. Our minds balk at meaningless horror.
In my opinion this is probably what Bonnie is doing.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Hagoth
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Re: YW General President's Misleading Faith Promoting Experience of Her Toddler Grandson's Death

Post by Hagoth » Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:33 am

alas wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:34 am
Our minds balk at meaningless horror.
And therein lies much of the purpose of religion.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Not Buying It
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Re: YW General President's Misleading Faith Promoting Experience of Her Toddler Grandson's Death

Post by Not Buying It » Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:53 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:30 am
stealthbishop wrote:
Wed Sep 07, 2022 2:31 pm
I have thought about it that way too but for her to share this story so often in public is such a risk. Does she not know that there is a public record of the circumstances of her grandson's death?!
There seems to be a tradition of just accepting what is said in a formal church setting as truth. It would be disloyal to reject or, God forbid, actively research the claims of one speaking in authority.

I can't imagine how Nelson thought he could get away with embellishing the story of the home intrusion in Africa to the point that even devoted followers felt the need to come forward with the truth. I hear people telling stories in church that are obviously not true, or are heavily embellished or modified, and I think there must be something in our makeup that tells us if we tell a story in a way that makes us or someone else feel the spirit, the story is transformed and validated as true in its own way.
Yeah, that home invasion story pisses me off, in that the mission president's wife got a broken arm and Nelson didn't use his amazing apostolic powers to keep that from happening. Like it was a truly miraculous event that his life was spared but not quite miraculous enough to keep her arm from getting broken. Those Stripling Warrior size guardian angels did a crap job of protecting the mission president's wife. And his gold Rolex - apparently that was a casualty as well. They must have been asleep on the job or something.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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stealthbishop
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Re: YW General President's Misleading Faith Promoting Experience of Her Toddler Grandson's Death

Post by stealthbishop » Wed Sep 14, 2022 12:54 pm

I'm numb to most of the crap that the GA's share now (most of the time). But this one really hit me. It really made me angry. The fact that the little child died from child abuse by one of the parents--I just can't seem to let it go. Even though I know that humans will embellish stories and there are psychological defenses that we have to block traumatic memories and events, it still is driving me crazy. It's driving me crazy that there were no consequences for these parents and that now this story is being seen as faith-promoting. I can't even... :x

I hope Bill Reel and RFM get all the records and continue to share what happened to this child.
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

-Depeche Mode

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Hagoth
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Re: YW General President's Misleading Faith Promoting Experience of Her Toddler Grandson's Death

Post by Hagoth » Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:37 am

stealthbishop wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 12:54 pm
It's driving me crazy that there were no consequences for these parents and that now this story is being seen as faith-promoting. I can't even... :x
Me too. If it continues on its current trajectory, like the Nelson home robbery story, this horrible event will transform into wonderful reminder of how Heavenly Father knows the best time to his welcome his children home, and a faith-building miracle for an elite family that chose to follow the Covenant Path. There very fact that there are no consequences testifies that Heavenly Father's hand is guiding it.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: YW General President's Misleading Faith Promoting Experience of Her Toddler Grandson's Death

Post by moksha » Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:37 pm

stealthbishop wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 12:54 pm
I hope Bill Reel and RFM get all the records and continue to share what happened to this child.
You might want to send them a note about this to let them know the audience wants more resolution on this story.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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blazerb
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Re: YW General President's Misleading Faith Promoting Experience of Her Toddler Grandson's Death

Post by blazerb » Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:22 pm

moksha wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:37 pm
stealthbishop wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 12:54 pm
I hope Bill Reel and RFM get all the records and continue to share what happened to this child.
You might want to send them a note about this to let them know the audience wants more resolution on this story.
I thought Kolby Reddish was making some good points about the need for caution in analyzing this horrible tragedy. What we know now is not making sense.

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stealthbishop
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Re: YW General President's Misleading Faith Promoting Experience of Her Toddler Grandson's Death

Post by stealthbishop » Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:38 am

All we know right now is that this child died by homicide (not necessarily murder) i.e., through the actions of another human being. We know the mother was arrested for aggravated child abuse but the charges were dropped. The father was charged by CPS for medical neglect but there were no consequences. I agree it is important to get more data and to proceed with caution but I think this story deserves more scrutiny.
"Take second best
Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

-Depeche Mode

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