TBMs who turn to" Real Christianity"

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Joseph lied
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TBMs who turn to" Real Christianity"

Post by Joseph lied » Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:15 am

I wonder how many former TBMs turn to mainstream Christianity after they come to know the "truth" . I know from reading on this site that many are turned off to religion after learning that Joseph lied and many become agnostic or atheist but of those that remain religious how many become stalwart members in other churches ? I have noticed quite a few turn to Coc.

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Hagoth
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Re: TBMs who turn to" Real Christianity"

Post by Hagoth » Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:07 am

Hi JL! Welcome to NOM!

Deconstructing Mormonism also deconstructs a huge swath of religion in general. When people come to the realization that religion and spirituality are not the same thing, and that no religion owns spirituality - that it is a free quality of life that we each own in our own degree - it frees them to broaden their horizons. Or else they become lazy learners, join Satan's Army and start drinking coffee, watching R-rated movies and listening to heavy metal.

My opinion: If you study enough of the history of religion, science, and ancient civilizations it becomes more and more apparent that religion is an entirely human invention that is no more real for "Real Christians" than it is for Rastafarians and Scientologists. "Real Christianity" is just another way of legitimizing a set of beliefs that give some people control over other people and their money. Not that it's always bad, or that it doesn't serve real, rational emotional needs, it's just that it's made up. I hope if people are switching to "Real Christianity" they are at least choosing a version that doesn't just check all of the same boxes as Mormonism but under a different name. I hope they are genuinely growing as spiritual thinkers and not simply replacing one set of myths and prejudices with another.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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RubinHighlander
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Re: TBMs who turn to" Real Christianity"

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:19 pm

Amen to Hagoth's post!

Fool me once...never again.

I quickly recognized the repeating patterns of tribalism from my experience with mormonism and now I see it in most other religions, political institutions, nationalistic governments, and many corporations. My experience also helps me empathize with those stuck in those institutions of control, even the flat earthers and other anti-science groups. Sapiens strong genetic need to fill the gaps in their minds and be accepted, drives some of us to these institutions, but mostly it's being born and raised in them and the peer pressure to follow the tribe.

When I first questioned mormonism and found it false, I went back to the bible, still hoping to find truth. All I found was more of the same BS; pull on the thread and it all unravels. I've now found peace in the "I don't know and nobody knows" for any purpose to this life. As a TBM that seemed a terrible place to be, it felt better to have all the answers. But now I've found that is the best place to be. Don't buy any other sapiens BS, you own your life views and your spirituality. And if you get into psycho active plants, meditation, time in nature, you'll discover there is a real spirituality to this existence, just nothing like the one that was fed to you by some prophet or institution but something much more interesting, satisfying and often mystical. Now it's fun to play with all the big questions. I go on existential journeys all the time, but it's best not to ever expect answers and just be okay to play with the questions and endless possibilities.
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Angel
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Re: TBMs who turn to" Real Christianity"

Post by Angel » Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:10 pm

There are some who turn to Eastern philosophies - Taoism, Buddhism.

A few universalists :)
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Hagoth
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Re: TBMs who turn to" Real Christianity"

Post by Hagoth » Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:18 pm

RubinHighlander wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:19 pm
I go on existential journeys all the time, but it's best not to ever expect answers and just be okay to play with the questions and endless possibilities.
Amen, brother. These are the kinds of words I would expect to hear when I climb the mountain and talk to the guru.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: TBMs who turn to" Real Christianity"

Post by Hagoth » Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:27 pm

Angel wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:10 pm
There are some who turn to Eastern philosophies - Taoism, Buddhism.

A few universalists :)
I love many of the underlying concepts of those traditions. Their problem is that they have fallen into the same traps. Buddhism with hells and demons? Hinduism with millions of gods? Fortunately, Zen takes a lot of the kinks out of Buddhism, but I tend to lean much more toward Taoism. It seems the least tainted by people trying to put their mark on it, and using it to control others. I think you can also find much of the same value in Pantheism. Both are nondualist and assume an attitude that the universe we experience is a manifestation/interpretation of something much greater - something we cannot comprehend but we can glimpse. That pretty much describes my new concept of spirituality: the human capacity to catch glimpses of the ineffable.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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wtfluff
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Re: TBMs who turn to" Real Christianity"

Post by wtfluff » Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:03 am

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:27 pm
...my new concept of spirituality: the human capacity to catch glimpses of the ineffable.
Must... Resist... Typing...

(Something about ghosts.)

And of course I failed resisting.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

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Hagoth
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Re: TBMs who turn to" Real Christianity"

Post by Hagoth » Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:46 am

wtfluff wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 9:03 am
Hagoth wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:27 pm
...my new concept of spirituality: the human capacity to catch glimpses of the ineffable.
Must... Resist... Typing...

(Something about ghosts.)

And of course I failed resisting.
No, not ghosts, damnit! Not dualism. ;)

I know it sounds really corny talking about this stuff, but the ineffable I'm talking about is the vastness and diversity of nature that, if we're really lucky, we occasionally get to glimpse beyond the little trickle of perception that our brains grudgingly mete out to us. I think humans are really good at stacking rocks and peeling potatoes, but we don't, bless our hearts, have the machinery for comprehending the fundamental nature of the universe all around us. We don't need to; it doesn't help us survive. When we do get the tiniest glimpse - what some call the mystical experience - we just assume the meat blob in our skulls can't possibly do something so amazing, so we jump the shark and falsely (in my opinion) attribute it to invisible ghosts and gods and demons. So when I talk about the mystical experience I'm talking about a very powerful brain state that can be seen in (f)MRI scans (see Michael Ferguson, Robin Carhart-Harris, Ronald Griffiths, Andrew Newberg, and others). It is real and it is powerful, so much so that some people devote their entire life to achieving it, or attempting to achieve it. It's a state that feels like we're making contact with something much bigger and older than ourselves, whether that is the case or not.

You asked me once if there's a name for it that doesn't involve ghosts. Glimpses of the Ineffable is the best I can do ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I'm still working on it. I have been fortunate enough to have had that experience a few times spontaneously and a few times with psychedelics, but never with a Ouija board or praying to Elohim.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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deacon blues
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Re: TBMs who turn to" Real Christianity"

Post by deacon blues » Fri Oct 07, 2022 9:48 am

I'm going to add a comment after two of my favorite posters have commented.

I can empathize with dualism. I sometimes imagine how those who believe in a "spiritual" reality feel. I can't imagine all of them, because there are probably thousands/millions of different views, but I try to imagine a few, if only because they are my loved ones. I try to do this in order to understand and empathize with them. Many of these viewpoints seem ridiculous, and some cause harm to their proponents, or cause their proponents to abuse others. I have wrestled with the New Testament, the only source of what we really know about the life of Yeshua of Nazareth-- what really happened and what didn't; What did 'Jesus' actually say and what didn't he say? I find some of the words attributed to him insightful and some ridiculous - especially if taken literally.

And this brings me to my relationship with Non-Dualism/Materialism. (Note: Materialism and hedonism are different and sometimes incompatible.)

I can empathize with this. I have had hundreds of "spiritual experiences" and tried to honestly analyze them. Most were inspired by nature, music, art, and literature (including what LDS call scripture). I've never had one that seemed "outside" of what my limited understanding of science of the mind and of the universe could explain materially. Each of my Materialist friends search for meaning in life, and most find it, as I have in living day to day, but with a limited understanding of reality. Materialists can have gratitude, thankfulness, which I think is the "peace that surpasses understanding."

I say "God/Reality bless us- everyone."
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Hagoth
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Re: TBMs who turn to" Real Christianity"

Post by Hagoth » Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:24 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 9:48 am
I'm going to add a comment after two of my favorite posters have commented.

I can empathize with dualism. I sometimes imagine how those who believe in a "spiritual" reality feel. I can't imagine all of them, because there are probably thousands/millions of different views, but I try to imagine a few, if only because they are my loved ones. I try to do this in order to understand and empathize with them. Many of these viewpoints seem ridiculous, and some cause harm to their proponents, or cause their proponents to abuse others. I have wrestled with the New Testament, the only source of what we really know about the life of Yeshua of Nazareth-- what really happened and what didn't; What did 'Jesus' actually say and what didn't he say? I find some of the words attributed to him insightful and some ridiculous - especially if taken literally.

And this brings me to my relationship with Non-Dualism/Materialism. (Note: Materialism and hedonism are different and sometimes incompatible.)

I can empathize with this. I have had hundreds of "spiritual experiences" and tried to honestly analyze them. Most were inspired by nature, music, art, and literature (including what LDS call scripture). I've never had one that seemed "outside" of what my limited understanding of science of the mind and of the universe could explain materially. Each of my Materialist friends search for meaning in life, and most find it, as I have in living day to day, but with a limited understanding of reality. Materialists can have gratitude, thankfulness, which I think is the "peace that surpasses understanding."

I say "God/Reality bless us- everyone."
Very well said, Deacon!
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Ghost
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Re: TBMs who turn to" Real Christianity"

Post by Ghost » Sat Oct 08, 2022 11:52 am

Similar to what RubinHighlander said, when I stated discovering issues with Mormonism I immediately skipped past that and instead tried to find the deepest layer I could question. Christianity and then theism in general.

I can entirely understand someone arriving at another set of religious beliefs after unwittingly losing the set they had before. There are good reasons for holding such beliefs, and good reasons such beliefs exist in the first place. For example, I still like the idea of surviving death and seeing those who have died again, even if I can't make the slightest sense out of it anymore. I can see that alone being a motivator not to investigate things too carefully after a certain point.

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wtfluff
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Re: TBMs who turn to" Real Christianity"

Post by wtfluff » Sun Oct 09, 2022 4:58 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:46 am
You asked me once if there's a name for it that doesn't involve ghosts. Glimpses of the Ineffable is the best I can do ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I'm still working on it. I have been fortunate enough to have had that experience a few times spontaneously and a few times with psychedelics, but never with a Ouija board or praying to Elohim.
To continue my stupid thread-jack about ghosts...

I must admit that "Glimpses of the ineffable" it the best definition of the-word-I-hate-to-say that I think I have heard. I'm trying my bestest to embed it in my fluffy brain. "Glimpses of the divine" would work too methinks.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

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stealthbishop
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Re: TBMs who turn to" Real Christianity"

Post by stealthbishop » Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:55 am

It would be interesting to see what percentage of LDS after a faith transition land in another Christian tradition.

FWIW, my wife still considers herself a Christian and appreciates communal worship but it has been difficult for her to attend elsewhere since her faith transition. I myself have stronger issues with Christianity. I believe in the historical Jesus but I don't believe in the literal resurrection of Jesus or that he is returning. I take strong issue with the Americanized so-called "non-denominational" Jesus who is this Ak-47 assault rifle toting capitalist. And I know not all American Christians align with that at all but my point is that it depends on what we mean by Christianity.
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Hagoth
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Re: TBMs who turn to" Real Christianity"

Post by Hagoth » Mon Oct 10, 2022 3:04 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Sun Oct 09, 2022 4:58 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:46 am
You asked me once if there's a name for it that doesn't involve ghosts. Glimpses of the Ineffable is the best I can do ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I'm still working on it. I have been fortunate enough to have had that experience a few times spontaneously and a few times with psychedelics, but never with a Ouija board or praying to Elohim.
To continue my stupid thread-jack about ghosts...

I must admit that "Glimpses of the ineffable" it the best definition of the-word-I-hate-to-say that I think I have heard. I'm trying my bestest to embed it in my fluffy brain. "Glimpses of the divine" would work too methinks.
Spirituality is a handy word because it is common and people have a general idea of what you're talking about. If you have to call it something else, a lot of people may not know what you're talking about. A better description of it is "simultaneous activation of the frontal attentions regions, the medial prefrontal cortex and the nucleus accumbens," but that's kind of like saying Thechurchofjesuschristoflatterdaysaints whenever you talk about Mormons. I take the lazy victory for Satan route and just call it spirituality.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: TBMs who turn to" Real Christianity"

Post by Hagoth » Mon Oct 10, 2022 3:07 pm

stealthbishop wrote:
Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:55 am
... it depends on what we mean by Christianity.
That's a great point. I doubt any 1st century Christians would be able to make sense of, or want any part of, modern Evangelicalism.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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wtfluff
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Re: TBMs who turn to" Real Christianity"

Post by wtfluff » Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:18 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Oct 10, 2022 3:04 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Sun Oct 09, 2022 4:58 pm
To continue my stupid thread-jack about ghosts...

I must admit that "Glimpses of the ineffable" it the best definition of the-word-I-hate-to-say that I think I have heard. I'm trying my bestest to embed it in my fluffy brain. "Glimpses of the divine" would work too methinks.
Spirituality is a handy word because it is common and people have a general idea of what you're talking about. If you have to call it something else, a lot of people may not know what you're talking about. A better description of it is "simultaneous activation of the frontal attentions regions, the medial prefrontal cortex and the nucleus accumbens," but that's kind of like saying Thechurchofjesuschristoflatterdaysaints whenever you talk about Mormons. I take the lazy victory for Satan route and just call it spirituality.
Yeah, well... If/when that common word gets used in a conversation with me, If it's someone I can't tease about ghosts, the first thing I will ask them to do is define "spirituality." There are likely as many definitions of ghost-uality as there are people. In fact, I'd be surprised if most people would even mention the word "spirit" when defining spirituality.

And there I go again. Ranting that we need a new word (words?) to define the Elevation Emotion that we feel while catching glimpses of the ineffable. :roll:
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

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Angel
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Re: TBMs who turn to" Real Christianity"

Post by Angel » Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:34 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:18 pm
... we need a new word (words?) to define the Elevation Emotion that we feel while catching glimpses of the ineffable. :roll:
SBNR - spiritual but not religious. "none", not affiliated.

But getting serious - your kind wonderful granny wants to know what you think of God- why not -

God is anything that inspires, elevates, and gives hope. Worship noble principles, worship ideas of love, justice, concepts - follow no person, worship no church, devotion to ideas.

Sometimes Elevation is created by some cool sh##. Why not seek it? Embrace it? Find cool sh## to get all worked up and devoted to?
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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DPRoberts
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Re: TBMs who turn to" Real Christianity"

Post by DPRoberts » Mon Oct 10, 2022 9:12 pm

To the OP, the only example on NOM I can think of is Palerider who I think believes in a biblical Christianity. You could search his posts if you want an example of that. I have no idea if he is a stalwart in a local church or if he just practices his faith in his own way.

Now to Fluff's threadjack. Actually I think it fits in the sense of what we might turn to once we no longer accept the claims of TCOJCOLDS. One thing that I observed once I was a disaffected member is that those feelings and glimpses of the ineffable that I had as a believer were still a part of me. A part of ME. Whatever it was that I had connected with in Mormonism, I still felt connected to it but without the religious baggage. While I suspect that the "whatever" most likely originates somewhere in my own neurology, I still want to call it something.

What I see around is many different kinds of people from the nonliteral to complete nonbeliever using the word "spiritual" in ways that have little to do with unseen beings. I can only speak for myself, but I like to reclaim the word "spiritual" back from the realm of superstition, and have it be used to describe a more universal part of the human condition. Our current dictionaries still have the superstitious definition, but I think the meaning of the word in everyday language has shifted and hopefully will continue to do so. I want the religious people to see examples of people who can talk about a spirituality that is not attributed to ghosts, and perhaps have it dawn on the religious that both are experiencing something that is universally human. No ghosts required.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest. -anon
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. -Max Born

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deacon blues
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Re: TBMs who turn to" Real Christianity"

Post by deacon blues » Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:15 am

wtfluff wrote:
Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:18 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Mon Oct 10, 2022 3:04 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Sun Oct 09, 2022 4:58 pm
To continue my stupid thread-jack about ghosts...

I must admit that "Glimpses of the ineffable" it the best definition of the-word-I-hate-to-say that I think I have heard. I'm trying my bestest to embed it in my fluffy brain. "Glimpses of the divine" would work too methinks.
Spirituality is a handy word because it is common and people have a general idea of what you're talking about. If you have to call it something else, a lot of people may not know what you're talking about. A better description of it is "simultaneous activation of the frontal attentions regions, the medial prefrontal cortex and the nucleus accumbens," but that's kind of like saying Thechurchofjesuschristoflatterdaysaints whenever you talk about Mormons. I take the lazy victory for Satan route and just call it spirituality.
Yeah, well... If/when that common word gets used in a conversation with me, If it's someone I can't tease about ghosts, the first thing I will ask them to do is define "spirituality." There are likely as many definitions of ghost-uality as there are people. In fact, I'd be surprised if most people would even mention the word "spirit" when defining spirituality.

And there I go again. Ranting that we need a new word (words?) to define the Elevation Emotion that we feel while catching glimpses of the ineffable. :roll:
I'm glad you bring this up, WTF. I believe if Church leaders really had complete confidence in the Holy Spirit/Ghost/Elevated feeling, they would encourage scientific studies of the brain during these "spiritual" episodes. ;)
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Hagoth
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Re: TBMs who turn to" Real Christianity"

Post by Hagoth » Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:17 am

wtfluff wrote:
Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:18 pm
And there I go again. Ranting that we need a new word (words?) to define the Elevation Emotion that we feel while catching glimpses of the ineffable. :roll:
:lol:
For everyday common spirituality, I think "sense of wonder" is pretty much the same thing, but without ghostly context. You can feel pretty much the same feelings watching a thrilling movie, but you don't think of it as spirituality because nobody's talking about Jesus or angels. I was talking to someone who took a nonmember to see the Hill Cumorah Pageant. Afterward he asked, "didn't you have a powerful spiritual feeling in your heart that told you it was all true? He said, "well, yeah, I did feel something like that at one point, but if that makes the Book of Mormon true, I guess I have to also conclude that ET really came back to life." Great response!

I'm far more interested in the (here comes another loaded word - but at least no specific mention of ghosts) mystical experience. Everyone experiences the spirituality/elevation/wonder brain state from time to time, but full-on mystical experiences are much more rare and many people never get there. Neurologically, according to Andrew Newburg who has been able to actually capture the event on brains scans, it happens when you reach a high level of the spirituality brain state and then the activity in the frontal attention centers suddenly plummets. What's going on there and why? Nobody knows, but it is an overwhelmingly powerful and moving experience that people attach to words like enlightenment, revelation, transcendence. Ooh, that's a good one. Replace mystical with transcendent. Maybe degrees of transcendence?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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