What’s wrong with the cross?

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Red Ryder
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What’s wrong with the cross?

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:05 am

I’ve heard a few podcasts that have me believe that many Mormon women are choosing to wear a cross in necklace or bracelet form. Not sure if it’s a culture or fashion thing mixed with belief in Jesus. It seems this has even permeated down to teenage girl fashion etiquette.

Regardless, the reasons Mormons are choosing to wear a cross is irrelevant. However it seems Elder Holland was speaking against it in a conference talk? I didn’t listen so don’t know exactly.

I just wanted to point out the irony.

Garments are considered an outward expression of an inward commitment.

But a cross shouldn’t be?

The reasoning given for Mormons not wearing a cross makes as much sense as the Mormon beard policy.

It’s not the cross we wear. It’s the cross we bear.

It’s not the garments we explain, it’s the garment we stain!

So dumb.
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2bizE
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Re: What’s wrong with the cross?

Post by 2bizE » Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:09 am

I’ve always heard that David O McKay had a disdain for the cross and cause it to go out of fashion.
Do you think the cross will make a return to Mormonism like bell-bottom pants? Rusty is already getting rid of the Angel Mormoni. He wants Mormonism to be more mainstream. Perhaps a resurrection of the cross in Mormonism is in the future?
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Mormorrisey
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Re: What’s wrong with the cross?

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:04 pm

It is dumb, and the only saving grace of what Holland said about it, was that we shouldn't give anybody grief who wears one.

But his explanation of why not was just standard nonsense of "worshipping a living Christ" instead of his death, etc. etc.

Really, it would just cost a crapload of money at this point to install a cross in each chapel or temple, and it's probably more about saving money for the corporation than anything else. That would be my guess, rather than deep theological "reasoning."
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Red Ryder
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Re: What’s wrong with the cross?

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:30 pm

What’s the difference between wearing a cross necklace or bracelet and wearing a WWJD bracelet?

Clearly Mormonism requires outward expressions of inner commitments to follow authorized patterns?

The church really has a chance to change a few things.

Imagine garments with the Masonic symbols replaced by a cross stitched cross? That would be spiritually sexy right?
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Re: What’s wrong with the cross?

Post by dogbite » Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:37 pm

They sometimes speak of the empty cross as symbolic of Jesus victory over death. That makes more sense for the empty tomb IMHO. The empty cross would still be for a dead jesus it seems.

Most of the home crucifixes I saw in Germany displayed a tortured suffering Christ on the cross.

In Neal Stephenson's Cryptonomicon, a Japanese character is recovering in a Filipino hospital in world war II at one point. He can't really fathom the Christ on the cross in the corner and is trying to understand it. He can speak English but he doesn't really know anything about Catholicism. Regarding the titulus he concludes it must stand for initiate nail removal immediately.

Like much of modern Christian symbolism, it is likely a co-opted piece of paganism.
Last edited by dogbite on Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RubinHighlander
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Re: What’s wrong with the cross?

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:04 pm

My memories of the anti-cross mormon dogma are tied to the old temple films where a catholic priest is portrayed as Satan's minion, trying to lead us all astray. The great and abominable church theme rang strong in the 70s and 80s then they backed off and change the temple film. The whole graven image thing was a bit on my shelf back in the TBM days, only because TSCC insisted on putting a golden statue of Moroni up top of all the temples. Gold leaf versions of Moroni on early BOM covers and even gold pins you could wear on your lapel or tie clips. Talk about a double standard.

I think trying to replace the cross with Moroni was another way JS and TSCC try to one up the rest of Christianity. All the one up stories in the BOM over the Bible. The super specialness with things like the WoW, funny underwear, etc., all designed to set mormons apart. But when that specialness is too culty or works against them in the latter days, they try to trappier it back and look more mainstream. It's a double edge sword.
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Red Ryder
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Re: What’s wrong with the cross?

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:35 pm

Ahhhh yes, Moroni on the temple is another weird one.

You put a statue of Moroni an ancient prophet on the house of The Lord where you go to worship Jesus, but instead participate in pantomiming Masonic rituals.

Mormonism really is weird.

How did we not see this when we were active members?
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Joseph lied
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Re: What’s wrong with the cross?

Post by Joseph lied » Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:21 pm

Sorry but for me I grew up outside the church and the cross always has been and will be for me at least an international sign of Christianity. I always thought it was lame the reasons the church gave for not using it. I wear a cross so they can just take that.

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moksha
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Re: What’s wrong with the cross?

Post by moksha » Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:24 am

The cross is the international sign of Christianity, but for many years the LDS Church has held itself out to not be part of traditional Christianity, but more of a fourth branch to the Abrahamic tradition: Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Mormonism.

Not having a symbol other than the dollar bill, the LDS Church adopted the slogan Choose the Right from the 1964 Barry Goldwater campaign. Its choice of religious wear is based on the 1965 IBM Corporation dress code. These items were chosen because the philosophies of men were loath to claim them.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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stealthbishop
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Re: What’s wrong with the cross?

Post by stealthbishop » Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:50 am

This is so stupid!

Yes, DOM began to push back on the cross due to him and others at that time freaking out that the Catholics were coming to Utah to strengthen their own Catholic membership in the state and they were worried that they would evangelize us Mormons! Hahahaha!!!!! Oh, the irony!!! So he began to push back on Mormons wearing the cross and our buildings having that symbol on them or in them.

I just have to say the logic or reasoning that the church doesn't embrace wearing crosses is because we don't focus on Christ's death is unbelievably faulty and nonsensical. What do we do almost every freakin' Sunday!? We literally sing hymns and partake of emblems of his death!!!!! I mean really?!!!

And finally, this is what God really wants us to know? This is what God wants us to focus on? There are so many serious problems in this world. And the God we worship wants us to know that he doesn't like us wearing crosses? This is the secret he is revealing to his servants the prophets? Wow!
Last edited by stealthbishop on Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Hagoth
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Re: What’s wrong with the cross?

Post by Hagoth » Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:51 am

Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:04 pm
Really, it would just cost a crapload of money at this point to install a cross in each chapel or temple...
I have noticed that many chapels do have a subtle cross. The ward I grew up in had a huge vertical rectangular window (they don't do that anymore) behind the choir seats. It was divided into square panes, and central vertical row of panes intersected with a horizontal row to make a perfect cross. My current ward chapel and our stake center both have a large array of wooden panels behind the choir seats arranged in the same way. Once you see it, it is an obvious reference to the cross that you can't unsee.
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Re: What’s wrong with the cross?

Post by Hagoth » Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:58 am

stealthbishop wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:50 am
I just have to say the logic or reasoning that the church doesn't embrace wearing crosses is because we don't focus on Christ's death is unbelievably faulty and nonsensical. What do we do almost every freakin' Sunday!? We literally sing hymns and partake of emblems of his death!!!!! I mean really?!!!
Mrs. Hagoth and I attended an interfaith Christmas concert at a Catholic church a few years ago. It was really beautiful. Between musical numbers, each choir director took a turn to step up to the microphone and offer an ecumenical Christmas message. All but one talked about how wonderful it was to come together as one community and focus on love and sharing. It being in a Catholic cathedral and all, of course there was a large crucifix on the wall. You can probably guess that the Mormon choir director's message was, "We believe in a living Jesus, not a DEAD Jesus" (exact quote). The air temperature immediately dropped 20 degrees.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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stealthbishop
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Re: What’s wrong with the cross?

Post by stealthbishop » Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:52 am

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:58 am
stealthbishop wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:50 am
I just have to say the logic or reasoning that the church doesn't embrace wearing crosses is because we don't focus on Christ's death is unbelievably faulty and nonsensical. What do we do almost every freakin' Sunday!? We literally sing hymns and partake of emblems of his death!!!!! I mean really?!!!
Mrs. Hagoth and I attended an interfaith Christmas concert at a Catholic church a few years ago. It was really beautiful. Between musical numbers, each choir director took a turn to step up to the microphone and offer an ecumenical Christmas message. All but one talked about how wonderful it was to come together as one community and focus on love and sharing. It being in a Catholic cathedral and all, of course there was a large crucifix on the wall. You can probably guess that the Mormon choir director's message was, "We believe in a living Jesus, not a DEAD Jesus" (exact quote). The air temperature immediately dropped 20 degrees.
It drives me crazy. It just drives me crazy. I can't deal with it. The absolute ignorance of our own religion and even by our own leaders. And the ignorant straw man we put up of other Christians like they don't care about the resurrection. OMG! I can't even!
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alas
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Re: What’s wrong with the cross?

Post by alas » Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:16 am

stealthbishop wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:52 am
Hagoth wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:58 am
stealthbishop wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:50 am
I just have to say the logic or reasoning that the church doesn't embrace wearing crosses is because we don't focus on Christ's death is unbelievably faulty and nonsensical. What do we do almost every freakin' Sunday!? We literally sing hymns and partake of emblems of his death!!!!! I mean really?!!!
Mrs. Hagoth and I attended an interfaith Christmas concert at a Catholic church a few years ago. It was really beautiful. Between musical numbers, each choir director took a turn to step up to the microphone and offer an ecumenical Christmas message. All but one talked about how wonderful it was to come together as one community and focus on love and sharing. It being in a Catholic cathedral and all, of course there was a large crucifix on the wall. You can probably guess that the Mormon choir director's message was, "We believe in a living Jesus, not a DEAD Jesus" (exact quote). The air temperature immediately dropped 20 degrees.
It drives me crazy. It just drives me crazy. I can't deal with it. The absolute ignorance of our own religion and even by our own leaders. And the ignorant straw man we put up of other Christians like they don't care about the resurrection. OMG! I can't even!
Yes, our absolute ignorance.

A few years ago, I had a friend who was exploring what she wanted to be when she gave up on Mormonism, or rather, when they finally excommunicated her for serial adultery. (Can you tell that somehow I lost respect for this former friend) she was looking for a religion that didn’t care about her habit of hopping into bed with whoever. She was destroying her life, 5 babies 5 fathers.

So, anyway, as she dug into evangelicalism, I discussed things with her, trying to make sure she understood what she was trading into. So, I looked up what they mean by the terms they use. You know, what do they mean by “born again,” or being “saved by faith, not works” and what I found is they actually teach the same thing we do. They just twist what we teach around one direction and we twist what they teach around the opposite direction. What do they mean by “you can’t be saved by works” is that duh, you have to accept the atonement. And when you ask them if you can keep on sinning after you are saved by faith, they look at you like why on earth are you even asking, then explain that mistakes you repent of are forgivable, but if you know you are sinning and keep doing it, then there is something terribly wrong with your faith because “faith without works is dead.” So, it ends up we actually teach the same thing, we just pretend we reach something correctly while they get it wrong.

So stupid!

I then dug into Catholic thinking on what we teach they are SO wrong about, and found that really, there is zero difference between baptism at 0 or 8. Even 8 year old kids do not have the cognitive ability to understand sin, they just obey their parents. So, it isn’t really understanding right from wrong. Joseph Smith just couldn’t stand having a sibling go to hell, so he decided the Catholics were wrong. We just pretend that things can be fixed after death for everyone who failed to get it done, and that God takes some children because they are already perfect. Instead of thinking that “Maybe it isn’t *God* who needs us baptized, maybe it is just something the Catholics pushed for institutional importance.”

But we bash the C for infant baptism, but never never talk about Baptists.

The Baptists probably get the baptism thing most correct. Get dunked as a symbol between you and God that you commit your life to Jesus. Jesus doesn’t need you dunked. You need you committed. It is an ordinance not a sacrament. It is not something necessary at all. And you get to do it when it means something to you, not just your parents.

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Re: What’s wrong with the cross?

Post by nibbler » Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:04 am

Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:04 pm
But his explanation of why not was just standard nonsense of "worshipping a living Christ" instead of his death, etc. etc.
Now get Holland to explain why we do the sacrament every week.
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Re: What’s wrong with the cross?

Post by wtfluff » Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:46 am

stealthbishop wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:50 am
...
I just have to say the logic or reasoning that the church doesn't embrace wearing crosses is because we don't focus on Christ's death is unbelievably faulty and nonsensical. What do we do almost every freakin' Sunday!? We literally sing hymns and partake of emblems of his death!!!!! I mean really?!!!
...
nibbler wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:04 am
Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:04 pm
But his explanation of why not was just standard nonsense of "worshipping a living Christ" instead of his death, etc. etc.
Now get Holland to explain why we do the sacrament every week.
Back in the day, I attended a Sacrament Meeting where one of the Q15 showed up in the audience. Of course Mr. Bishop turned the meeting over to the "Apostle" and that "Apostle" spent the entire remainder of the meeting preaching that "partaking of the sacrament" is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING that a human does every week. NOTHING ELSE is more important than symbolic cannibalism!

Quite a few years later in the midst of finding out the truth about LD$-Inc. I remembered that speech, and my stupid, logical (fluffy?) brain kicked in and I decided to put those words to the test. If I stopped participating in THE MOST IMPORTANT THING a human can do every week, I should notice a difference in my life, correct? I girded my loins and started passing the trays by without partaking of the "emblems" and... My life didn't change at all. Well... It did change in that I knew that weekly symbolic cannibalism did/meant nothing in reality. I haven't participated since my initial test to see if anything changed. Even while still attending I wore it like a badge of honor - not imbibing the Wonder-Bread and tap-water.
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alas
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Re: What’s wrong with the cross?

Post by alas » Thu Oct 06, 2022 2:34 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:46 am
stealthbishop wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:50 am
...
I just have to say the logic or reasoning that the church doesn't embrace wearing crosses is because we don't focus on Christ's death is unbelievably faulty and nonsensical. What do we do almost every freakin' Sunday!? We literally sing hymns and partake of emblems of his death!!!!! I mean really?!!!
...
nibbler wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:04 am
Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:04 pm
But his explanation of why not was just standard nonsense of "worshipping a living Christ" instead of his death, etc. etc.
Now get Holland to explain why we do the sacrament every week.
Back in the day, I attended a Sacrament Meeting where one of the Q15 showed up in the audience. Of course Mr. Bishop turned the meeting over to the "Apostle" and that "Apostle" spent the entire remainder of the meeting preaching that "partaking of the sacrament" is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING that a human does every week. NOTHING ELSE is more important than symbolic cannibalism!

Quite a few years later in the midst of finding out the truth about LD$-Inc. I remembered that speech, and my stupid, logical (fluffy?) brain kicked in and I decided to put those words to the test. If I stopped participating in THE MOST IMPORTANT THING a human can do every week, I should notice a difference in my life, correct? I girded my loins and started passing the trays by without partaking of the "emblems" and... My life didn't change at all. Well... It did change in that I knew that weekly symbolic cannibalism did/meant nothing in reality. I haven't participated since my initial test to see if anything changed. Even while still attending I wore it like a badge of honor - not imbibing the Wonder-Bread and tap-water.
Yes, it really irked me that this “most important thing you can do each week” was unavailable to women of the church who didn’t have priesthood in their home, during the Covid lockdown. It was like the brethren just wanted to show the women who had no priesthood holder how much they were missing by not having a priesthood member in their home. There were hundreds of ways the church could have found a work around to get the sacrament into the homes of single women, widows, single mothers, and those married to anyone without priesthood. How hard would it have been to have the woman prepare her own sacrament, then her home teacher, friend, father, brother could have blessed it over the phone, or standing just outside her door, or over zoom. But, no, they stuck with the most narrow definition of how the sacrament must be blessed and passed. The person preparing the bread and pouring up the water has to be a priesthood holder, and the person blessing it has to be right there physically, without so much as a door or telephone live between. Yet, the sacrament can be blessed and passed to the women out in the foyer or in the mother’s nursing room, even though it was blessed a few rooms away, or at very large conferences, it can be blessed in one room, and in the secondary room it is blessed over the intercom system, then passed to everyone. And no matter that in the past women did prepare the bread and water for the priesthood to bless. What is so sacred about a male breaking the bread, and if that is sacred, maybe she could just eat the whole slice so it doesn’t need to be broken. With all kinds of ways they could have worked around the virus, to get the sacrament to all who desire it, they just didn’t bother. Instead telling the women to just think about the sacrament prayer, and that’s good enough.

So, now I have my ready answer about why I don’t really have to go back to church. I don’t have to take the sacrament. I can just think about the sacrament prayer and that is just as good. What’s good for Covid lockdown is good enough for the rest of the time.

If it was really important, they could have figured something out, so we all know now that it is not important.

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Red Ryder
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Re: What’s wrong with the cross?

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:10 pm

alas wrote:
Thu Oct 06, 2022 2:34 pm
Yes, it really irked me that this “most important thing you can do each week” was unavailable to women of the church who didn’t have priesthood in their home, during the Covid lockdown. It was like the brethren just wanted to show the women who had no priesthood holder how much they were missing by not having a priesthood member in their home. There were hundreds of ways the church could have found a work around to get the sacrament into the homes of single women, widows, single mothers, and those married to anyone without priesthood. How hard would it have been to have the woman prepare her own sacrament, then her home teacher, friend, father, brother could have blessed it over the phone, or standing just outside her door, or over zoom. But, no, they stuck with the most narrow definition of how the sacrament must be blessed and passed. The person preparing the bread and pouring up the water has to be a priesthood holder, and the person blessing it has to be right there physically, without so much as a door or telephone live between. Yet, the sacrament can be blessed and passed to the women out in the foyer or in the mother’s nursing room, even though it was blessed a few rooms away, or at very large conferences, it can be blessed in one room, and in the secondary room it is blessed over the intercom system, then passed to everyone. And no matter that in the past women did prepare the bread and water for the priesthood to bless. What is so sacred about a male breaking the bread, and if that is sacred, maybe she could just eat the whole slice so it doesn’t need to be broken. With all kinds of ways they could have worked around the virus, to get the sacrament to all who desire it, they just didn’t bother. Instead telling the women to just think about the sacrament prayer, and that’s good enough.

So, now I have my ready answer about why I don’t really have to go back to church. I don’t have to take the sacrament. I can just think about the sacrament prayer and that is just as good. What’s good for Covid lockdown is good enough for the rest of the time.

If it was really important, they could have figured something out, so we all know now that it is not important.
I agree with this. There’s a great episode about it on the “At Last She Said It!” Podcast.

A simple answer would have been to have The First Presidency video themselves breaking and blessing the sacrament so that everyone home could have just clicked on the video and blessed the sacrament via video proxy by the FP. Of course they would have to edit out the part where they kneel down and can’t get back up. 😅
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moksha
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Re: What’s wrong with the cross?

Post by moksha » Fri Oct 07, 2022 1:45 am

Mike Reed wrote the definitive book on this subject, Banishing the Cross: The Emergence of a Mormon Taboo,
Independence, Mo.: John Whitmer Books, 2012.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Re: What’s wrong with the cross?

Post by dogbite » Fri Oct 07, 2022 11:59 am

I personally don't wear identifying products. I don't put bumper stickers on my car. I don't wear brand labels splayed across my shirt. Sadly, I can't so easily get around it in footwear. I don't wear jewelry, even watches except rarely. I usually trim off tags on the inside of clothes too, just because they irritate me, often making me itch there.

I don't want to give anyone an excuse to single me out. I don't want to give them information to pigeonhole me. I don't want them to make assumptions about me based on self-provided labels for good or ill.

So while not about a cross per se, what information do you want to give away? Why do you want to give it? Is it worth the risks?

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