Tales from the Heretic in HC

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Mormorrisey
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Tales from the Heretic in HC

Post by Mormorrisey » Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:58 pm

I know we're all waiting with baited breath for the next instalment of Bishop Graey's latest adventures (here's hoping that all's well, bishop!), and hopefully my humble report on my HC experiences will satisfy some of that need.

I have made a startling realization over the last few weeks - I am now the most "senior" member of my local high council, as the longest one standing before me was recently released. I'm still utterly befuddled on how I've lasted this long, although I'm starting to see a pattern emerging. I currently have zero assignments, which suits me fine. So I basically attend the meetings, say very little, speak now and again in a ward, and that's it. But I'm realizing that since I've joined the high council, we've never had twelve members of the high council! We've had ten, we've had eleven, and we even had nine for a few weeks, but never twelve. So I suspect the need I'm fulfilling in the stake is the 10th/11th man off the bench! They can't dip down too far in numbers on the HC, so as long as I don't give them too much grief, I guess I'm helping massage the numbers on the HC.

Just a couple of stories, though, that illustrates how things are.

So I must say first, how much NOMference has helped my talk preparations, and this story is a prime example. So my thanks to President Mopag and her counsellors and fellow participants for the help! Some months ago we were assigned the April 2022 Christofferson talk on how God doesn't act like a cosmic vending machine, and that just because we follow the commandments we don't automatically get blessings. Now I was a bit harsh on Christofferson in the initial NOMference, but as I re-read comments by alas and others, I realized that this could work as an anti-prosperity gospel screed, and that's the direction I took the talk. In it, I referenced a colleague I taught with years ago, that she was the best person I have ever known - she ran the local mental health association as a volunteer, and did so much good in her community. And then I said, she did all these things without any skin in the game when it came to blessings, as she was an atheist and married to another woman! So I said, if that's the case, shouldn't we just do good things in our community, and/or follow the commandments simply because it's the right thing to do, and not in any expectation of a divine reward?

Well apparently not! So I actually used the cosmic vending machine quote in the talk, and this quote sent the bishop of that ward in a bit of a tizzy. He got up when I finished and quoted D&C about how when we are obedient, we get the blessing, then ended with the testimony that God will always give blessings when we are obedient. I sat with a tiny smile, and when the meeting ended, the bishop came up to me and said, "I hope you don't mind. But I have enough people questioning why they are obedient and don't get blessings." I said that's fine, you know your ward, but just so you know, that's not what Elder Chrisofferson was saying. He kind of raised a Spockean eyebrow at that (like most Mormons, I'm sure he didn't really read/pay attention to conference talks), and it didn't help matters that the wife of another bishop in the stake ran up to us, told me it was the best talk she'd ever heard, and wanted my notes! I let this sister know I was actually speaking in her ward that day as double duty and she clapped her hands and said, "Great! I wasn't going to go to my ward today, and I will now!" As the bishop was rather dumbfounded by this turn of events, I simply shook his hand and left. I'm still wondering if this ever got back to the stake, but at least one bishop's wife was on my side! Pretty hilarious.

My very last talk I gave the stake president was there, and it was pretty recent so I won't give many details - other than I used this particular talk to rant about Pharisee-like thinking in the church, quoted that great Irish film by Jon McDonough Calvary, quoted some Peter Enns, and pretty much did the opposite of what they wanted me to do. Suffice it to say, that I was not chosen to speak the last high councilman Sunday! So who knows how long any of this is going to last.

My last story is what happens in the meetings. Usually I don't say much, I don't really have to. They know where I stand. But one of the things I simply don't understand, is why they keep harping on why young people are leaving, when they don't really want to look at the root cause. So one meeting, we had just finished up a discussion on the YSA, and one of the HC dudes went on a rant about garments, and how young people weren't wearing them properly, meaning night and day. Now, this dude is close in age to me, has children my age, and I know for a fact that his kids are fed up with his harping on them for not wearing their garments, because his wife told mine! It was mentioned that since the omission of "night and day" language from the recommend question, young people felt validated not to wear them night and day, but take them off when they feel like it. Which of course is wrong, wrong, wrong! So I put up my hand, said the following. "I know this august group thinks they are right, but has anybody considered the fact that they got rid of this language because they know they are losing the battle with young people? And that maybe it's nothing to be worried about? Are we seriously going to police how people are wearing their underwear now?" That produced some uncomfortable silence, and a lot of "when you wear your garments properly you get blessings", yada yada. So I just said, well, good luck with that. Good grief. And then they wonder why the young people have had enough. It completely boggles my mind.

In any event, there's a flavour of what's been going on, all is not really well in Zion, but I'm sure this group knows that all too well.

I will let everyone know when I get released. Next month, maybe?
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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alas
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Re: Tales from the Heretic in HC

Post by alas » Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:46 pm

I really liked your reply that maybe the rule was changed for a reason and maybe the leaders do know what they are doing. It really makes sense as to why the leaders might change the requirement. And if it isn’t a real thing where the person will be so tempted to sin, from the time they are home at night and get ready for bed, to the time they get up in the morning, why insist they HAVE to sleep in them? Or not take them off to mow the lawn. If a sexy chick walks by while they are mowing the lawn, are people REALLY worried that the dude will jump her? It sounds more like resentment that younger people might get easier rules. Your fellow high council sound like the generals who when soldiers were dying from heat stroke after a day of marching around just for practice, insisted that marching must continue, was not an obsolete concept, and that if they had to do it back when they first trained, then dammit so did the new recruits. “If I had to suffer through marching/garments night and day, why should younger people get out of it?” It is more about making others suffer just as much as you did, even if there was no purpose. Such a kind hearted idea that others need to suffer just as much as me. I mean, your idea is perfectly logical. If young people will leave the church over x and there is zero purpose behind x, then why keep x as a requirement?

I think as science proves coffee healthy, tea healthy, and finds a cause of being born gay, and other things, that younger folks will follow the science. I think younger folks are also less superstitious about things like wearing garments as some kind magic protection from injury as well as sin, and that is also following the science. So, the church will start to be less dogmatic on many issues because they want to keep the younger people. For too long now, the church has been run by 80 year olds who want to maintain things just as they were when they were young. That simply has to change. I think the leaders have caught on that things need to change. So, us 60-70 years olds need to get with the program and not insist that our grand children follow the same rules we grew up with. Unless the rule has logic and good science behind it, we need to be willing to let it go.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Tales from the Heretic in HC

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:54 pm

I love this post especially the Bishop’s wife complimenting you on your talk.

Mormonism really can’t move past the redundant routines and accept that certain issues are slowly killing it. what made it great in the 50’s and 60’s no longer works.

It’s a symptom of the one prophet and 14 successors model.

Could you imagine if the Prophet was chosen by actual need rather than living the longest?

We would never have a 90 year old whose fake and glory revolves being a heart surgeon from 50 years ago.

Although if I think about it too much, we would probably have a woman prophet with a big butt and 2 million Instagram and 3 million Tik Tok followers with just as much substance as a 90 year old former heart surgeon.

So perhaps an election is needed in which case I vote for MoPag as Prophet Seer and Revolter! 😂😂
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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Red Ryder
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Re: Tales from the Heretic in HC

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:58 pm

alas wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:46 pm
Unless the rule has logic and good science behind it, we need to be willing to let it go.
There would be nothing left in Mormonism when exact obedience is the first law of heaven.

But nonetheless you are right so you’re also getting my vote!
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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alas
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Re: Tales from the Heretic in HC

Post by alas » Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:11 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:58 pm
alas wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:46 pm
Unless the rule has logic and good science behind it, we need to be willing to let it go.
There would be nothing left in Mormonism when exact obedience is the first law of heaven.

But nonetheless you are right so you’re also getting my vote!
Yeah, well maybe they would have to realize that Jesus gave a different “first law of heaven.” “This s the first and great commandment, that thou love the lord thy God and the second is like unto it, that you love your neighbor as yourself.” Do we worship Jesus or Russel Nelson?…….don’t answer that.

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Angel
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Re: Tales from the Heretic in HC

Post by Angel » Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:33 pm

The prosperity gospel is so evil. I do volunteer work in community, not church related, and was always confused why no one joined me... I guess everyone believed riches were blessings, and contrarily everyone had what was coming to them? Cancer, immigrants, abused children - it was all "earned" so, no motivation to help anyone. Really horrific - took me awhile to realize that mindset among members.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
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MoPag
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Re: Tales from the Heretic in HC

Post by MoPag » Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:40 am

Well done good and faithful Mormorissey! Way to kick a$$ on your talk and fulfill you NOM calling in HC!

Red, thank you for your MONination as Prophetess! I accept!

Everyone on NOM will be my apostles.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Tales from the Heretic in HC

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:55 am

Fetching great stuff here Heretic HC!

You might bring up the "Faith Crisis Report" research TSCC funded back in 2011, put some hard church sourced data against their angsty assumptions.

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_ ... s_R28e.pdf

Keep up the good works!
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Hagoth
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Re: Tales from the Heretic in HC

Post by Hagoth » Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:54 am

alas wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:46 pm
I think younger folks are also less superstitious about things like wearing garments as some kind magic protection from injury as well as sin...
What, they don't know that no one has ever sinned or been injured while wearing garments?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Red Ryder
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Re: Tales from the Heretic in HC

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:32 am

Hey Mormorrisey,

What happens after you get released? Will you accept another calling? If so, which ones are you willing to do?

I maintained a primary calling with the wife for a few years and then post covid haven’t been back so currently don’t have one.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Tales from the Heretic in HC

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:10 pm

alas wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:46 pm
I think younger folks are also less superstitious about things like wearing garments as some kind magic protection from injury as well as sin, and that is also following the science. So, the church will start to be less dogmatic on many issues because they want to keep the younger people.
I'm hopeful that is the case, but I'm a little dubious. At least on a local level, and maybe I'm a little biased, but I suspect that young people will be seen as less faithful and righteous, and that will tend to speed up the exodus. But if they have no leadership available for the next generation, maybe the top dudes will go lighter on the dogma. We'll see.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Tales from the Heretic in HC

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:19 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:32 am
Hey Mormorrisey,

What happens after you get released? Will you accept another calling? If so, which ones are you willing to do?

I maintained a primary calling with the wife for a few years and then post covid haven’t been back so currently don’t have one.
That's a great question. I have a feeling there won't be much of a demand for my rather apathetic services at either the ward or stake level, so I'm not really all that concerned that they'll work hard to find me something. At this point, I'm not entirely sure what I'd want to do OR be willing to do. Primary sounds fun, but they don't really want me teaching, it seems. I guess it will depend on what it is, but I'm sure if I really don't want to do something, I'll just give a resounding no. If I don't mind, I'll say yes. But when they do release me, I plan on telling them that my temple recommend is not based on any calling, so why don't you do us all a big favour and just NOT call me to anything at all, at the ward or stake level? That should make everybody happy.

We'll see, but right now this one seems to fulfill everyone's needs.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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moksha
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Re: Tales from the Heretic in HC

Post by moksha » Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:16 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:58 pm
I said that's fine, you know your ward, but just so you know, that's not what Elder Chrisofferson was saying. He kind of raised a Spockean eyebrow at that (like most Mormons, I'm sure he didn't really read/pay attention to conference talks), and it didn't help matters that the wife of another bishop in the stake ran up to us, told me it was the best talk she'd ever heard, and wanted my notes!
Do you think the bishop learned anything from this other to reinforce his own ideas?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

hmb
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Re: Tales from the Heretic in HC

Post by hmb » Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:48 am

So an active LDS person (most of which don't show up to serve when inconvenient) can get into good heaven and enjoy blessings, while the true humanitarian, who chose to walk away from the church, is denied. True Christ-like behavior vs mediocre (convenient) Christ-like behavior. There's no baptism for dead folk that left. They had their chance. Maybe good deed doers, who have left the church, will get an honorable mention.

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stealthbishop
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Re: Tales from the Heretic in HC

Post by stealthbishop » Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:50 am

Super interesting. Love your POV Mormorissey. Well done! Clearly your talk was a blessing to the people who were ready and needed it.
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Put me to the test
Things on your chest
You need to confess"

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deacon blues
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Re: Tales from the Heretic in HC

Post by deacon blues » Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:12 pm

hmb wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:48 am
So an active LDS person (most of which don't show up to serve when inconvenient) can get into good heaven and enjoy blessings, while the true humanitarian, who chose to walk away from the church, is denied. True Christ-like behavior vs mediocre (convenient) Christ-like behavior. There's no baptism for dead folk that left. They had their chance. Maybe good deed doers, who have left the church, will get an honorable mention.
When I read this the first time I thought you wrote "True Christ-like behavior vs. mediocre (covenant) Christ like behavior." ;)
Last edited by deacon blues on Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tales from the Heretic in HC

Post by DPRoberts » Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:34 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:58 pm
I said that's fine, you know your ward, but just so you know, that's not what Elder Chrisofferson was saying. He kind of raised a Spockean eyebrow at that (like most Mormons, I'm sure he didn't really read/pay attention to conference talks), and it didn't help matters that the wife of another bishop in the stake ran up to us, told me it was the best talk she'd ever heard, and wanted my notes!
Apparently my Stake Pres missed the Christofferson talk, because he gave a hard line wear your garments talk in a fairly recent Stake conference. Dragged out a bunch of old quotes about wearing them all the time. I suspect he was trying to impress the visiting Seventy with the strict obedience angle. My Stake Pres has GA wannabee written all over himself.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest. -anon
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. -Max Born

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Re: Tales from the Heretic in HC

Post by Conman52 » Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:23 pm

Very interesting post. To piggy back off this somewhat I haven't worn a tie or white shirt to church in the last 18 months and someone finally asked me about it , I just told them the truth that I felt just wearing my everyday clothes (golf shirt and decent looking pants) I was trying to be more humble than wearing nicer clothes tie etc. All I got was a puzzled look. I could see the wheels turning in his head !
Last edited by Conman52 on Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
By their fruits ye shall know them

Conman52
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Re: Tales from the Heretic in HC

Post by Conman52 » Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:23 pm

Very interesting post. To piggy back off this somewhat I haven't worn a tie or white shirt to church in the last 18 months and someone finally asked me about it , I just told them the truth that I felt just wearing my everyday clothes (golf shirt and decent looking pants) I was trying to be more humble than wearing nicer clothes tie etc. All I got was a puzzled look. I could see the wheels turning in his head !
By their fruits ye shall know them

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Tales from the Heretic in HC

Post by Mormorrisey » Mon Jan 09, 2023 11:02 am

OK.

I have reached nirvana with my calling, and I have never been so excited about this new relationship the church and I have. I recently received an email that a member of the stake presidency asked me very nicely to do an audit in the stake, and actually apologized for having me do it, knowing how much I absolutely detest, loathe and otherwise despair of doing audits.

This approach has actually worked, and I agreed to do it. But as long as those in charge recognize I don't really want to do anything, and they will only ask me to do things in desperation, knowing full well I might say no, then, this is relationship I want with church leaders going forward. I don't know if everyone would feel this way, but I'm just so pleased with this turn of events.

I guess I really am the ward weirdo.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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