NOM

I was ponderizing a few weeks ago about what the church would be like today if after moving out west with BY, the church was able to create its own country rather than the Utah area, previously Mexico becoming part of the USA.
What would the church look like it it was unchecked from the norms of a normal society?
I think the church would still be practicing polygamy. I think the church would be very much like the Taliban or North Korea with religious oppression. The Mormon country would be a marred in religion extremism. The Q12 would form an extreme dictatorship.
I’m certainly glad this didn’t happen, yet the way the church currently influences the Utah government, there is certainly a religious extremist feel.
What do you think Utah would look like if it were totally unchecked?

Colorado City comes to mind.

Surprised there hasn't been more discussion on this post. We already know what it would have been like - Utah from about 1847 to about 1857. Brigham Young had total control over everything - church, government, society. Most dictators rule with mere force - Brigham had the perception of divine investiture behind him as well, and his will went unchallenged and unquestioned. What he said went, up until the federal government decided it needed to pay attention to what was going on out there. There were no boundaries, there was no constraint, literally anything the guy thought ruled the lives of everyone in the territory. And that's how Mormonism would rule if left to its own devices.

Make no mistake - the Church seizes every bit of control it can get, and imposes its will on everyone to full extent it can. Completely unchecked Mormonism would become a dictatorship more controlling, more oppressive, and more onerous than those of us raised in the comforts of a representative democracy can really imagine. It would tolerate no opposition, it would be ruthless with any adversaries, and it would justify any and all atrocity as the "will of God". Apostates and Native Americans in Utah learned that the hard way.

We've seen Mormonism unchecked in the early history of Utah, and its pretty unsettling.

The Godhood would consist of God, Jesus, Joseph, and Holy Ghost. President Azrael Q. McConkie would have suggested that Joseph is at the top of the list.

Women would wear white burqas to church and camouflage burqas for their routine cleaning and kitchen duties. There would be a standardized way to transport excess boys out of the Kingdom of Deseret.

Mormonism/Utah Territory unchecked would have been governed by the Church. The government would have been by church leaders and the courts would have been by church members. What would that have been like? I refer to an excerpt from the 1851 trial of Howard Eagan for murdering the seducer of his wife, a Mr. Monroe. George A. Smith is speaking as prosecutor:

"When the news reached Iron County, that Egan's wife had been seduced by Monroe, the universal conclusion was, "there has to be another execution;" and if Howard Egan had not killed that man, he would have been damned by the community for ever, and could not have lived peaceably, without the frown of every man. Now we see that the laws of England only require a civil suit for damages, in a case of seduction; but are these laws to be applied to us who inhabit these mountain heights? The idea is preposterous. You might as well think of applying to us the law of England which pertains to the sovereign lady, the Queen, alone. I will apply it, and with much better sense: "To seduce the sovereign lady, the Queen, is death by the law." I will say, here, in our own Territory, we are the sovereign people, and to seduce the wife of a citizen is death by the common law," (Journal of Discourses, v. 1; Plea of George A. Smith, Esq., on the Trial of Howard Egan for the Murder of James Monroe, Before the Hon. Z. Snow, Judge of the First Judicial District Court of the United States for the Territory of Utah. Great Salt Lake City, October Term, 1851.)

This is an extreme example of what an unchecked court in Utah was like, before the US government intervened later in 1858. I could list other examples of a type of "common law" that might have been practiced in Utah.

It would make for an excellent alternate history TV drama.

deacon blues wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:12 pm

I could list other examples of a type of "common law" that might have been practiced in Utah.

I would love to read more examples.

Here is an interesting video on what happened to Joseph and Hyrum in the Carthage jail:

https://vimeo.com/665462413

This link does not work for me, but you can Google it under: Who killed Joseph Smith? on Vimeo.

I think North Korea is a reasonable example of what it would look like.

Upper leadership is regarded as something next to gods. They get whatever they want, for whatever reason. They live in extreme luxury. Church leadership is the closest thing to middle class, but most people live in poverty. Expect the Law of Consecration to be brought back so that the common people must give everything to the church/state. Expect a very communist looking state. However, 20th century Communism tended to have some checks and balances built in that make/made them somewhat stable. I can't see that happening here. With leadership simply able to play the "god's will" card any time they want, there isn't anything to keep power from spinning out of control.

BY tried to be an isolationist. They even tried building their own arms industry, however they were never able to make good quality iron, so they were not able to successfully make cannons, even though they tried. I think part of the reason they didn't put up a bigger fight is that they couldn't get the weapons needed to stand up to the US army at the time if it came down to an actual conflict.

If they did make the country of Deseret, they would be surrounded on 3 sides by the US. Maybe Mexico on the south. Expect to have great difficulty trading. The US was suspicious of the Utah Territory for a long time. The US could very well embargo trade and migration in and out of the country of Deseret. Expect the transcontinental railroad to be built further north to avoid going into another country.

Even if they are able to play nice with Mexico, all trade would have to come from the south, with the capitol in Salt Lake on the north, all trade would take a LONG time and be very expensive.

Eventually, Mormon missionaries would not be welcomed in the outside world. Polygamy in church leadership would result in women being basically horded by the people in power. This will lead to a shortage of women for the average man. Historically, there were always more men than women in the church, all the way up to the 1960's. Unchecked lust by church leadership will only make this worse. Most men in the church will be forced to be single due to no women being available. Maybe they would create some sort of monastery like system to keep the hordes of single men living in poverty in check.

With the lack missionary work in Europe, they will be forced to focus on the Native tribes and Mexico. I don't know how well that will work. They will struggle to build the population. ON top of that, polygamy historically has a much lower birth rate than traditional marriages, so population will grow slowly, further increasing the poverty rate and economic divide.

moksha wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:04 pm

deacon blues wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:12 pm

I could list other examples of a type of "common law" that might have been practiced in Utah.

I would love to read more examples.

Check out: "Utah Historical Quarterly," Fall 1983: Mountain Common Law. Incidentally, having an apostle for a defense attorney was a distinct advantage in frontier Utah.

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:18 pm

It would make for an excellent alternate history TV drama.

That would be awesome and horrifying at the same time.

I think the BYU's give an idea of what it would look like. There would be "elections" where the Brethren would tell us the candidate who would be running unopposed for each office. I'd bet that elections would be held by public vote and raising the right hand. Those in lower offices would be expected to support unanimously the decisions of the higher-ups. The only window into the thoughts of those making decisions would be general conference. There would be no unscripted Q&A sessions or press conferences.

I would expect that public spaces would be kept beautiful. To accomplish that, those living in the borders would be expected to volunteer time for public works. These would be considered an extension of religious callings. Assignments would be made to do certain work. Failure to fulfill assignments would lead to public shaming or possibly more serious consequences, depending on the severity.

There would be constant surveillance to see who might have any sins. There would be some sort of Honor Code police checking to see who visits what establishments. Probably some rules about where some people can live and with whom in order to maintain public morality, or at least the appearance of public morality. Schools would have to teach the approved curricula. The church would want to have some well-educated citizens, but they would be carefully watched to make sure they don't get out of hand. I think they would allow the teaching of evolution, but the church would also subtly suggest that righteous people don't believe it. I can't imagine that the church would complain if human anatomy textbooks were censored to be safe for young people, like that professor did a year or so ago.

It would be bad.

Good point, Blazerb. BYU is a great example of a little mini-state governed by the Church. Leaders and teachers would be encouraged to report "rebels." Everyone would be constantly reminded how much the Church does for them, and there would lots of little pharisaical rules; maybe a little like a home owners organization on steroids.

deacon blues wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:37 am

maybe a little like a home owners organization on steroids.

What a great description of the church!

They would probably also have their own language. Pay Lay Ale anyone?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deseret_alphabet

Did you know that in Utah, churches that serve sacramental wine as a part of communion are required to be licensed by the state?