NOM

Ghost wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 24, 2023 2:27 pm

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:01 am

Unnamed Philosopher maintained that consciousness is a fundamental quality of nature, and that everything in existence possesses it to some degree.

Are you sure this wasn't Brigham Young? I seem to remember him having said some very similar things about "intelligence" and how the elements are actually obeying God when He "controls" them, etc.

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:14 pm

malkie wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 21, 2023 7:41 pm

Is a Roomba conscious? It appears to have goals, and to be able to look for and use ways to overcome obstacles.

When you touch something hot, and jerk your hand away, it all happens before your brain has any idea about what is going on. So are your reflexes conscious?

I could (probably go on and on with examples of things that exhibit the same kinds of behaviour you are describing, but that you would likely hesitate to ascribe consciousness to.

I thought of the same examples, Malkie. A Roomba would be much more interesting to me if they came about naturally. But it didn't. It was designed and programmed by human brains to perform specific functions in predetermined ways.

In discussions of consciousness, one thing that comes up sometimes is that if you observe your own behavior, you get the sense that your consciousness is more of an observer than an actor. That your "self" is just along for that ride and taking credit for what your body does. In other words, maybe we are programmed just like the Roomba, but with more complex programming courtesy of natural selection rather than a human designer. And for some reason, there's also a part that can access senses and memories, and that tells stories and thinks it's in control.

That makes me think of something I read recently: "If we are to be truthful about it, we don't wash our hands - we simply look on while our hands wash each other."

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:38 pm

It feels to me like all us individual sapiens are brain cells that are being forced back into one machine again. Seems counter intuitive, but look how desperately these systems we've created are trying to plug us into everything and record every aspect of our lives and behaviors. Sure it's being driven by a few with most of the $$, the greed to control, but to me it seems something more primal is generating this drive.

Wouldn't be interesting if their $$ motivation is actually an illusion created by higher manipulative forces, "at the bidding of vast, formless things that shift the scenery to and fro" ? (Edgar Allen Poe)

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:38 pm

There's a lot of rabbit holes to jump into from all of this BS I just typed out, so I'll stop here.
IDKSAF

You always leave my head spinning with cosmic bigness, RH. Have I mentioned lately that I love you?

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:38 pm

...
IDKSAF

Where can I buy a IDKSAF t-shirt?

(I miss Ruth...)

wtfluff wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:47 pm

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:38 pm

...
IDKSAF

Where can I buy a IDKSAF t-shirt?

(I miss Ruth...)

I'm picturing you with a IDKSAF forehead tattoo, Fluff. I'll even pay for it.

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:36 pm

wtfluff wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:47 pm

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:38 pm

...
IDKSAF

Where can I buy a IDKSAF t-shirt?

(I miss Ruth...)

I'm picturing you with a IDKSAF forehead tattoo, Fluff. I'll even pay for it.

I was thinking: Inside my eyelids. Just to remind myself now and then that I Don't Know...

Those (NOM's) who don't know, but know that they don't know don't worry me. Those that don't know that they don't know scare me. In other words, there are those: mystics, religionists, etc. who think they know what is true but they don't. They will try to swallow a camel (Jesus's words) to prove what they don't know is true. Was Jesus such a mystic/religionist? I don't know.

deacon blues wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:21 pm

Those (NOM's) who don't know, but know that they don't know don't worry me. Those that don't know that they don't know scare me. In other words, there are those: mystics, religionists, etc. who think they know what is true but they don't. They will try to swallow a camel (Jesus's words) to prove what they don't know is true. Was Jesus such a mystic/religionist? I don't know.

I honestly don’t know either.

I’m OK with that.

Whatever that means.

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:22 am

Wouldn't be interesting if their $$ motivation is actually an illusion created by higher manipulative forces, "at the bidding of vast, formless things that shift the scenery to and fro" ? (Edgar Allen Poe)
[/quote]

Exactly what I was thinking! The ultimate joke on the biggest egos: they were manipulated in their selfishness pursuits by the cosmic consciousness in order to force all the crazy sapes back into a more organized matrix or global brain or hive of some type. Or the meatbags are merely an evolutionary stepping stone to get to the silicon based intelligence epoch that will really be able to go places in this cosmos and figure out things on a level we can't even imagine. We may have invented real gods to replace the pretend ones!

I love you too brother Hagoth! It's time for an adventure into the desert.

deacon blues wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:21 pm

Those (NOM's) who don't know, but know that they don't know don't worry me. Those that don't know that they don't know scare me. In other words, there are those: mystics, religionists, etc. who think they know what is true but they don't. They will try to swallow a camel (Jesus's words) to prove what they don't know is true. Was Jesus such a mystic/religionist? I don't know.

I'm even ok with them thinking they know, if it makes their life better and they understand that it only applies to them and to no one else. Unfortunately, that's rarely the situation. Once someone thinks they've got it figured out they expect everyone else to start falling in step with their expectations.

What philosopher David Chalmer called the "hard problem" of consciousness is answering the question "Why should physical processing give rise to a rich inner life?" I not only see my wife, I experience seeing her, I see myself seeing her and I know- although I cannot explain it in so many words- what it is like to see her. I wonder whether the most substantive answer to this question, about which everyone and their dog seems to be writing a book nowadays (myself and my dog included!), was that given by Steven Pinker in his classic book How the Mind Works: "Beats the heck out of me!"

Your mileage may vary.