Church paying $5 Million SEC fine

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A New Name
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Church paying $5 Million SEC fine

Post by A New Name » Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:42 am

The Ensign Peak hiding has come home to roost.
They did not file the yearly paperwork required by trying to hide the money in shell companies
read about it here

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nibbler
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Re: Church paying $5 Million SEC fine

Post by nibbler » Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:32 am

5 million. That's rough.

Better slash ward budgets.
We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.
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blazerb
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Re: Church paying $5 Million SEC fine

Post by blazerb » Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:19 am

Haven't we been taught that the title of this topic should be "The Savior paying $5 Million SEC fine"?

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blazerb
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Re: Church paying $5 Million SEC fine

Post by blazerb » Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:33 am

Here's the church's response: https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... settlement

TLDR: We relied on legal counsel, regret the mistakes we made, and the matter is closed.

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Advocate
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Re: Church paying $5 Million SEC fine

Post by Advocate » Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:56 am

I like how the settlement included a big fine, but did not require the church to admit any wrong-doing. For all those who say justice can't be bought, you are wrong. This shows that you can buy anything in this world, with money.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Church paying $5 Million SEC fine

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:26 pm

To put this in perspective:

If you had $100,000 in the bank and we’re fined by the SEC you would be paying a $5 fine.

It says more about the lack of enforcement bite the SEC has to slap billion dollar companies with meaningful fines.

The church won’t ever admit they hid assets and this is considered a win. I’ll bet they go home tonight and celebrate with lemonade and cookies. Or as Elder Connor McGregor would say “it’s red garmie night!”
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Church paying $5 Million SEC fine

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:49 pm

blazerb wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:33 am
Here's the church's response: https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... settlement

TLDR: We relied on legal counsel, regret the mistakes we made, and the matter is closed.
"The matter is closed?!!"

Do these people still have no idea how the internet works? It's not closed at all, people who don't like the church's non-transparency will have a heyday with this, and the church will still think they can do business as usual while all around them people will bring this up to justify not paying tithing anymore and a whole host of other things. Methinks this will only accelerate the decline. It's not the fine, not the coverup, but continuously trying to ignore the elephant in the room, from church history, to LGBTQ issues to financial non-transparency, that seems to be bringing about the steady decline.

The tone deaf approach has not worked for a while now, and why they think it will at some point is beyond me.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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nibbler
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Re: Church paying $5 Million SEC fine

Post by nibbler » Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:28 pm

blazerb wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:33 am
Here's the church's response: https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... settlement

TLDR: We relied on legal counsel, regret the mistakes we made, and the matter is closed.
They should probably run a comb through that official response before officially responding with it.
Investment managers who oversee a portfolio of public equities above a certain threshold are required to file Forms 13F with the SEC quarterly. These forms publicly disclose the names of the securities and their values.

Since 2000, Ensign Peak received and relied upon legal counsel regarding how to comply with its reporting obligations while attempting to maintain the privacy of the portfolio. As a result, Ensign Peak established separate companies (LLCs) that each filed Forms 13F instead of a single aggregated filing.
So there are laws to disclose information to the public, they didn't want to disclose the church's wealth publicly, so they created a lot of shell companies to obfuscate the church's wealth.

Something, something, as transparent as we know how to be.

Time to ascribe motivation.

Members that have been told to pay tithing before they feed their families may be less willing to do so if they knew just how rich the church was. For the members that pierce the veil and make the discovery the line is, "Yes, the church doesn't need your money but you still need to pay the church to be obedient to the commandment."

And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: and yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

The church with its rainy day fund is showing a complete lack of faith in god. They presently rob the poor to hoard up against a feared future. Not a hoard to benefit the member but a hoard reserved for the organization. They better hope Jesus doesn't come back before they can bolt all the tables to the floor.
We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.
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lostinmiddlemormonism
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Re: Church paying $5 Million SEC fine

Post by lostinmiddlemormonism » Tue Feb 21, 2023 4:08 pm

I would like to bear my testimony that the church is true, the profit will never lead us astray, and if it does we can pay the small fine. In the name of cheese and rice, ramen.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Church paying $5 Million SEC fine

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:34 pm

Quorum of the 12 Cloned LLC’s

ASHMORE WEALTH MANAGEMENT LLC Nathan Brown
ARGYLL RESEARCH, LLC Brian Davi
CLIFTON PARK CAPITAL MANAGEMENT, LLC Don Clouse
CORTLAND ADVISERS LLC Matthew Lawrence
ELKFORK PARTNERS LLC David Johnson
FLINTON CAPITAL MANAGEMENT LLC Alan Wilson
GLEN HARBOR CAPITAL MANAGEMENT LLC Kristy Woodward
GREEN VALLEY INVESTORS LLC Roger Evans
MEADOW CREEK INVESTMENT MGMT LLC Brad Barlow
NEUBURGH ADVISERS LLC Troy Nielsen
RIVERHEAD CAPITAL MANAGEMENT LLC Aaron Davis
TIVERTON ASSET MANAGEMENT LLC Michael Christensen
TYERS ASSET MANAGEMENT LLC Cole Lundquist
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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moksha
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Re: Church paying $5 Million SEC fine

Post by moksha » Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:37 am

The action of the Church when exposed to the light casts an ill shadow.

The mindset of being deceptive rather than honest worked against the Church.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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w2mz
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Re: Church paying $5 Million SEC fine

Post by w2mz » Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:33 am

JMHO:

- The amount of the fine is a joke.
- Paying the fine is an admission they were dishonest.
- Paying the fine and then saying “The matter is closed” is akin to buying an indulgence.
- If the church really cared about honest dealings, each of the money managers and their leadership would have their temple recommends revoked and be disfellowshipped.

The only shred of positive I see from this is somewhere someone said this may (long shot) be a starting point for a stronger class action lawsuit where exmembers could try and get their tithing back based on the church’s now established record of dishonesty. (Not likely, but maybe a step in the right direction)

Hail Satan.
The church has engineered your eternal family into a commodity that can be purchased with an annual fee. The fact that full tithing payment is a requirement for saving ordinances is the biggest red flag imaginable. Hagoth

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Just This Guy
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Re: Church paying $5 Million SEC fine

Post by Just This Guy » Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:37 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:26 pm
To put this in perspective:

If you had $100,000 in the bank and we’re fined by the SEC you would be paying a $5 fine.

It says more about the lack of enforcement bite the SEC has to slap billion dollar companies with meaningful fines.

The church won’t ever admit they hid assets and this is considered a win. I’ll bet they go home tonight and celebrate with lemonade and cookies. Or as Elder Connor McGregor would say “it’s red garmie night!”

If I am understanding thing correctly, the got a $5M fine for failure to disclose a $35B investment fund. So if they make 7% interest of that money, that fund alone will earn the $5M back in 6.81 hours. Meaning that by the time the check has cleared, they have already make back their money.

$5 is not even a slap on the wrist for LDSinc.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

Izhmash
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Re: Church paying $5 Million SEC fine

Post by Izhmash » Wed Feb 22, 2023 12:35 pm

I'm still trying to figure out how do you have excess tithes AND poor people?

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Church paying $5 Million SEC fine

Post by Mormorrisey » Wed Feb 22, 2023 12:49 pm

I was wondering what Sam Brunson, the usual financial apologist for the church was going to say about this, and I must say I'm impressed:

https://bycommonconsent.com/2023/02/21/ ... ore-120243

Here's the lines that will make things for Dr. Brunson very interesting going forward:

"But here’s the thing: the church didn’t make a mistake. It’s not that it was unaware that EPA had a filing requirement—EPA informed the top church hierarchs almost immediately that it needed to file 13Fs. But rather than comply with the law, top church leaders decided to obfuscate, to stretch the law to (or, imho, beyond) the breaking point. It’s not that mistakes were made—it’s that the church took deliberate action to do wrong. And how should we, as active members, look at this deliberate action to do wrong? I don’t think there’s any way to justify it, and I don’t think members should be asked to justify it. After all, we believe in being honest. To receive a temple recommend, we have to affirm that we’re honest in our dealings. And, in spite of our teachings and belief, the top church leaders chose dishonesty. They chose not only to bend the law, but to break it."

When you've lost your usual go-to guy to explain to non-Mormons why financial accountability is no big deal, it's a big deal.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Random
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Re: Church paying $5 Million SEC fine

Post by Random » Wed Feb 22, 2023 5:29 pm

w2mz wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:33 am
The only shred of positive I see from this is somewhere someone said this may (long shot) be a starting point for a stronger class action lawsuit where exmembers could try and get their tithing back based on the church’s now established record of dishonesty. (Not likely, but maybe a step in the right direction)
I won't hold my breath, but it would be really nice to get back the tithing I paid when I paid tithing instead of paying my bills, and when I paid tithing instead of making sure we had enough food to eat first.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Random
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Re: Church paying $5 Million SEC fine

Post by Random » Wed Feb 22, 2023 5:30 pm

Izhmash wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 12:35 pm
I'm still trying to figure out how do you have excess tithes AND poor people?
💥
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Palerider
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Re: Church paying $5 Million SEC fine

Post by Palerider » Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:02 pm

Saw John Dehlin and guest (lawyer) on this issue tonight. Very informative and insightful. The fine is nothing but according to the findings the church leadership had to admit guilt to achieve a settlement. They knowingly lied and broke the law intentionally as stated in the documents.

All members should remember that in their next temple rec interview.

I think this is going to hurt the church more than they know.

The First Presidency and Q12 are proven liars and law breakers by their own admission. Period.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

malkie
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Re: Church paying $5 Million SEC fine

Post by malkie » Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:30 am

Palerider wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:02 pm
Saw John Dehlin and guest (lawyer) on this issue tonight. Very informative and insightful. The fine is nothing but according to the findings the church leadership had to admit guilt to achieve a settlement. They knowingly lied and broke the law intentionally as stated in the documents.

All members should remember that in their next temple rec interview.

I think this is going to hurt the church more than they know.

The First Presidency and Q12 are proven liars and law breakers by their own admission. Period.
From what I've read in other places, the church neither admitted nor denied guilt - they did, however, give up the right to deny guilt in the future.

It was more like a decision on the part of the church to avoid further investigation in which they might be found guilty and fined a lot more than the paltry $5 million.

I could be wrong, of course - IANAL :)
aka malkie

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Palerider
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Re: Church paying $5 Million SEC fine

Post by Palerider » Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:19 am

malkie wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:30 am
Palerider wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 11:02 pm
Saw John Dehlin and guest (lawyer) on this issue tonight. Very informative and insightful. The fine is nothing but according to the findings the church leadership had to admit guilt to achieve a settlement. They knowingly lied and broke the law intentionally as stated in the documents.

All members should remember that in their next temple rec interview.

I think this is going to hurt the church more than they know.

The First Presidency and Q12 are proven liars and law breakers by their own admission. Period.
From what I've read in other places, the church neither admitted nor denied guilt - they did, however, give up the right to deny guilt in the future.

It was more like a decision on the part of the church to avoid further investigation in which they might be found guilty and fined a lot more than the paltry $5 million.

I could be wrong, of course - IANAL :)
I think you're right technically. But if someone can't or won't deny their guilt, to me it's the same as admitting it. Check out Dehlin on Mormon stories. They deconstruct the church's statements very well.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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