22 Months Down. 38 To Go.

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
User avatar
græy
Posts: 1341
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:52 pm
Location: Central TX

22 Months Down. 38 To Go.

Post by græy » Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:45 pm

Hey NOM friends! Long time no see. I hope you are all doing well!

I apologize for being gone for so long, it has been a crazy 8 or 9 months. Not so much in the church thing, though that is still plodding along. We started a home renovation project which quickly turned into an 8 month nightmare which we're only now getting some closure on. Between that, a work promotion, regularly busy family life, and bishoping I have not really had the energy or time to post, though I have been checking in occasionally.

My journey as a bishop has had its ups and downs, but it is mostly continuing the same routine. I don't know what to go into here. Suffice it to say that EVERYONE is struggling with something, and everyone needs to learn to be kinder to everyone - including ourselves.

There have been some interesting developments with my wife regarding a polygamous family in our ward. :shock: No, no! Its not what you think. But it has led to some interesting conversations and an admission on her part the she no longer knows where she's at in her belief, nuance, or acceptance of the church. Those conversations hurt her, I can see that. I just hold her and tell her we're in this together and I know it hurts but we'll figure it out.

I'll add some more in the coming hours/days. But for now, I've just finished my meetings for the day after.... 9 hours in the building. I'm going home.
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack

User avatar
Angel
Posts: 795
Joined: Thu May 31, 2018 8:26 am

Re: 22 Months Down. 38 To Go.

Post by Angel » Sun Feb 26, 2023 3:26 pm

a polygamous family - even without knowing any Mormon polygamists (I do know someone from Africa who is a child of polygamous family).

From the female perspective, the one thing I can say that is positive about polygamy, it can kind of force women to be more independent. At least how my African friend explained it - all the wives, it was a business deal - those women all ran their own farms, they were independent queens - rarely saw the father, and in his absence they became the head of the household, they were masters of their own ship.

Polygamy isn't like a marriage, soul-mates, intimate, one and only, your other half. Marriage is beautiful, but also leads to unhealthy dependency.

Polygamy is a business deal - where women do not have a husband they can count on, he is not their "other half", he is just in there as a third, or a fifth - not sharing every moment, or sharing every trust. In such a family, women become self-reliant, independent.

Good to hear from you!
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

User avatar
MoPag
Posts: 3916
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:05 pm

Re: 22 Months Down. 38 To Go.

Post by MoPag » Mon Feb 27, 2023 12:03 am

Grey, you are so freaking awesome!!! Good for Sister Grey!! I'll send some positive vibes. Hopefully one day she'll join the NOM ward too!!
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

User avatar
wtfluff
Posts: 3656
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:20 pm
Location: Worshiping Gravity / Pulling Taffy

Re: 22 Months Down. 38 To Go.

Post by wtfluff » Mon Feb 27, 2023 10:13 am

You are amazing græy-bispo.

I never remember really "enjoying" any of the callings I had while actively believing attender; I can't imagine bishop-ing in your situation.

Looking forward to more returning and reporting.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

User avatar
A New Name
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:36 pm

Re: 22 Months Down. 38 To Go.

Post by A New Name » Wed Mar 01, 2023 3:20 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Mon Feb 27, 2023 10:13 am

I never remember really "enjoying" any of the callings I had while actively believing attender; I can't imagine bishop-ing in your situation.
When I was bishop, now 20 years ago, I really enjoyed the one on one meetings with people, just listening to them, helping them as I could, but mostly just lending a ear and letting them talk. I also enjoyed getting to know the youth, helping them with problems, and just being their friend.
It helped that I didn't try to be a marriage counselor or psychologist. I used fast offerings quite liberally to send people to professional counselling.

Cnsl1
Posts: 588
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:27 pm

Re: 22 Months Down. 38 To Go.

Post by Cnsl1 » Thu Mar 02, 2023 1:26 am

Bishops like you guys make the church a pretty good place.

Unfortunately, the corporation squashes, washes, and bashes the good bits until they become the exception and not the norm.

User avatar
Red Ryder
Posts: 4161
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:14 pm

Re: 22 Months Down. 38 To Go.

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:15 am

Bishop Graey we need to discuss your inactivity at NOM.

Your voice is a breath of fresh air. Your purpose, calling, and election is made sure… to help us find the good things still remaining in the church.

Keep up the good fight!

I highly recommend you and your wife listen to the At Last She Said it Podcast. It’s soft and gentle, yet hard hitting and honest expressing the challenges women have in the church.

Start with episode 5. It’s called Men Don’t Have a Giant Church Bag. https://atlastshesaidit.org/episode-00 ... hurch-bag/

Then episode 8: My Patron Saint is Chieko Okazaki
https://atlastshesaidit.org/episode-00 ... o-okazaki/

Then episode 10: We Don’t Believe Our Own Stuff
https://atlastshesaidit.org/episode-01 ... own-stuff/

From there, either start at the beginning or pursue the titles that sound the most interesting.

The “We don’t believe our own stuff” episodes are some of the best!
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

User avatar
2bizE
Posts: 2423
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:33 pm

Re: 22 Months Down. 38 To Go.

Post by 2bizE » Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:28 pm

Love to hear from you Bishop. Why do you suppose so many people are needy? (Not always financially) It seems like the church wants people to be self efficient, yet at the same time wants them to be completely dependent on the church.
~2bizE

Tangent
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:17 pm

Re: 22 Months Down. 38 To Go.

Post by Tangent » Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:30 pm

2bizE wrote:
Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:28 pm
Love to hear from you Bishop. Why do you suppose so many people are needy? (Not always financially) It seems like the church wants people to be self efficient, yet at the same time wants them to be completely dependent on the church.
I agree! the church wants you to be completely dependent on them in every respect...ummm...except financially. And didn't you know the best way to financial independence is to pay the church 10% before anything else, even rent or feeding your family? Totally makes sense!

User avatar
Red Ryder
Posts: 4161
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:14 pm

Re: 22 Months Down. 38 To Go.

Post by Red Ryder » Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:15 pm

2bizE wrote:
Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:28 pm
Love to hear from you Bishop. Why do you suppose so many people are needy? (Not always financially) It seems like the church wants people to be self efficient, yet at the same time wants them to be completely dependent on the church.
This is the successful result of the system. The church is designed exactly to accomplish this. Let’s illustrate.

God (Church) Humans

The church controls the path back to God.
Humans desire to connect with God.
No unclean thing can be with God.
Church defines worthiness and cleanliness.
Humans are inherently unclean.
Therefore humans need the church.

The church now has the power to control the human.
Our access to God depends on the church.
The church enlists male leaders to be a judge.
Ward members aren’t perfect and commit sin.
Ward members feel guilty
Ward members are taught to be childlike.

The bishop has to work with infantilized adults that appear to be needy.

TLDR; the church makes you sick and then sales you the cure!
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

User avatar
alas
Posts: 2381
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: 22 Months Down. 38 To Go.

Post by alas » Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:47 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:15 pm
2bizE wrote:
Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:28 pm
Love to hear from you Bishop. Why do you suppose so many people are needy? (Not always financially) It seems like the church wants people to be self efficient, yet at the same time wants them to be completely dependent on the church.
This is the successful result of the system. The church is designed exactly to accomplish this. Let’s illustrate.

God (Church) Humans

The church controls the path back to God.
Humans desire to connect with God.
No unclean thing can be with God.
Church defines worthiness and cleanliness.
Humans are inherently unclean.
Therefore humans need the church.

The church now has the power to control the human.
Our access to God depends on the church.
The church enlists male leaders to be a judge.
Ward members aren’t perfect and commit sin.
Ward members feel guilty
Ward members are taught to be childlike.

The bishop has to work with infantilized adults that appear to be needy.

TLDR; the church makes you sick and then sales you the cure!
More specifically, the church teaches you to:
1. distrust your own judgement, so when you have a question in life, like who to marry, or do I leave my abusive spouse, you feel you have to go to the bishop for advice.
2. it isn’t God who forgives, but the church. And then the bishop wants to see you once a week for two years before he is willing to say you are forgiven.
3. If you commit a sin a second time, all the guilt form every other time comes back.
4. That some sins, like sex, are beyond the atonement to fix.
And THEN includes being a rape victim in “guilty of sex”.
5. Hold the bishop up as your best buddy, (so teens will confess) and then never let you outgrow this this “friend” image, so all the little old widows run to the bishop just because they are lonely.

Conman52
Posts: 137
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:32 pm
Location: West michigan

Re: 22 Months Down. 38 To Go.

Post by Conman52 » Fri Mar 10, 2023 2:21 pm

Good to hear from you Bishop. We are all pulling for you that you will be able to endure to the end.
By their fruits ye shall know them

User avatar
Mormorrisey
Posts: 1425
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:54 pm

Re: 22 Months Down. 38 To Go.

Post by Mormorrisey » Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:48 am

Great to see you come up for air, Bishop! You and your wife hang in there.

Not too many of us having-to-hold-calling NOM's left, it's a unique form of self-flagellation that only a rare few can survive intact. I feel your pain, dude! Keep on truckin' and keep blessing the lives of your ward members!
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 5126
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: 22 Months Down. 38 To Go.

Post by moksha » Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:57 pm

Bishop Graey, your congregation will miss you big time when your term is up. It is so hard to find candidates with NOM training.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

User avatar
græy
Posts: 1341
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:52 pm
Location: Central TX

Re: 22 Months Down. 38 To Go.

Post by græy » Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:13 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:15 am
Bishop Graey we need to discuss your inactivity at NOM.
Ha! I know. I have missed this group and hope to do better in the future. You all are the best of the best!
I highly recommend you and your wife listen to the At Last She Said it Podcast. It’s soft and gentle, yet hard hitting and honest expressing the challenges women have in the church.
I have listened to a few of these over the years. I think I sent one (or maybe just a link to the general podcast page) to my wife once, but she did not do anything with it. I'll have to give those episodes another listen and then go and get her to partake.
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack

User avatar
græy
Posts: 1341
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:52 pm
Location: Central TX

Re: 22 Months Down. 38 To Go.

Post by græy » Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:44 am

græy wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:45 pm
There have been some interesting developments with my wife regarding a polygamous family in our ward. :shock: No, no! Its not what you think. But it has led to some interesting conversations and an admission on her part the she no longer knows where she's at in her belief, nuance, or acceptance of the church. Those conversations hurt her, I can see that. I just hold her and tell her we're in this together and I know it hurts but we'll figure it out.
I wanted to expand on this a bit. A husband, wife, and one very young daughter (toddler) began attending our ward some weeks ago. I never go to GD class myself, but I'm told they contribute to discussions and have obviously read the bible and bom as any good member should. However, they are not members and adamantly refuse to meet with missionaries.

As it turns out, they are members of the LeBaron fundamentalist group. They are here in our ward temporarily while a 2nd wife (who has not attended our ward) is taking classes in the area.

One of the families in our ward invited them over for dinner a few weeks ago and they accepted. The wife of the member family openly admits that she has strong concerns regarding polygamy and how it was practiced by the church back in the day, so I can only imagine how that conversation went when the truth of their circumstances came out.

A few days later, my wife went on a walk with the other member sister and another friend from the ward. They discussed this polygamous family and both of the two women (not my wife) very plainly stated they were extremely bothered and upset over polygamy and that is was still claiming "victims" to this day.

Mrs. Græy came home from the walk and nearly broke down into tears asking me why polygamy didn't bother her. And then she continued from there... "Why doesn't church history bother me?" "How can I hear and read so much about what really happened and still go about as if nothing has changed?"

I gave her a hug and let her know it was okay. If it doesn't matter to her, then I was on her side. If one day it does matter to her, then I'll still be on her side.
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack

User avatar
wtfluff
Posts: 3656
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:20 pm
Location: Worshiping Gravity / Pulling Taffy

Re: 22 Months Down. 38 To Go.

Post by wtfluff » Tue Mar 21, 2023 1:46 pm

græy wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:44 am
Mrs. Græy came home from the walk and nearly broke down into tears asking me why polygamy didn't bother her. And then she continued from there... "Why doesn't church history bother me?" "How can I hear and read so much about what really happened and still go about as if nothing has changed?"

I gave her a hug and let her know it was okay. If it doesn't matter to her, then I was on her side. If one day it does matter to her, then I'll still be on her side.
When Mrs. Græy says "polygamy doesn't bother her" does that include sharing you with multiple other women in Super VIP Heaven in the MORmON afterlife?

(Inquiring minds and all...)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

User avatar
Red Ryder
Posts: 4161
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:14 pm

Re: 22 Months Down. 38 To Go.

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:19 pm

Carolyn Pearson’s book “The Ghost of Polygamy” really put it in perspective for me. Sister Ryder ordered her book (with a quick note and signature as well) that was extremely effective at detailing the heartbreak of polygamy even in a the modern church. A true ghost that haunts every woman. Highly recommend it.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

User avatar
græy
Posts: 1341
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:52 pm
Location: Central TX

Re: 22 Months Down. 38 To Go.

Post by græy » Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:25 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 1:46 pm
When Mrs. Græy says "polygamy doesn't bother her" does that include sharing you with multiple other women in Super VIP Heaven in the MORmON afterlife?

(Inquiring minds and all...)
Great question. Based on conversations I'd expect she would not be okay with polygamy being part of our future. I think she's specifically referring to the way polygamy was introduced/practiced/taught by the church 100+ years ago. She's listened to the entire YoP podcast with no real affect on her belief in the church.
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack

User avatar
græy
Posts: 1341
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:52 pm
Location: Central TX

Re: 22 Months Down. 38 To Go.

Post by græy » Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:27 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:19 pm
Carolyn Pearson’s book “The Ghost of Polygamy” really put it in perspective for me. Sister Ryder ordered her book (with a quick note and signature as well) that was extremely effective at detailing the heartbreak of polygamy even in a the modern church. A true ghost that haunts every woman. Highly recommend it.
Also a good call, Red! I've had that book in my to-buy list for a few years now. Maybe it is time to follow through and buy/read it.
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 72 guests