She seems close to the end sometimes

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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Conman52
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She seems close to the end sometimes

Post by Conman52 » Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:16 pm

Hi gang : Been sometime since I have visited and posted my own thread. I have missed you guys. Recently when all the financial dealings of ensign peak came out in the news I kept dropping hints and at one point came out and asked my TBM wife if she would want to belong to a dishonest organization?? She said no and we had a couple of other discussions about it and I was thinking her shelf was crashing then the next day she wouldn't even talk about it and doubled down. She was almost there !!!! What happens to those that almost turn the corner ?? I just don't get it !! What do you Nomies say ??
By their fruits ye shall know them

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alas
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Re: She seems close to the end sometimes

Post by alas » Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:27 pm

Sometimes those who almost turn the corner retrench. They fortify the “shelf” because they feel like it is under attack. This is why we NOMmies advise taking it slow yourself and allowing your spouse to find their own way out or to stay TBM and stay in. You just can’t lead them out until they decide on their own that is the direction they want to go.

So, yes, keep talking about your journey out, unless your spouse say it feels uncomfortable or refuses to talk about it. Then back off and reassure them that you love them just the way they are and don’t try to change them. Trying to change your spouse just makes them feel unloved. I mean, you know how you would feel if spouse pressured you to stay in or lectured you about the evils of leaving. So, golden rule, if you wouldn’t like spouse to try to change you, don’t try to change them.

So, it is a fine line between sharing your own spiritual journey, and expecting your spouse to join you in your journey. So, pay close attention to if you push too hard to try to get her to leave. And refusing to talk about it is a pretty good sign you gave her too much to think about and she didn’t like it. In other words, you pushed too much to get her to leave the church.

People just have to change their own minds sometimes and any attempt to get them to change back fires on you.

Wonderment
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Re: She seems close to the end sometimes

Post by Wonderment » Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:51 pm

Conman52 wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:16 pm
Hi gang : Been sometime since I have visited and posted my own thread. I have missed you guys. Recently when all the financial dealings of ensign peak came out in the news I kept dropping hints and at one point came out and asked my TBM wife if she would want to belong to a dishonest organization?? She said no and we had a couple of other discussions about it and I was thinking her shelf was crashing then the next day she wouldn't even talk about it and doubled down. She was almost there !!!! What happens to those that almost turn the corner ?? I just don't get it !! What do you Nomies say ??
This is what happens psychologically: sometimes when TBM's have too many items "on their shelf", they tend to be emotionally overwhelmed and cannot process all the issues. TBM's believe that God and the church are inseparable. God and the church are one and the same, because the church does the Lord's work on earth. So to doubt the church is to doubt the works of God and to doubt the first commandment to love the Lord thy God.

Right now, your spouse started to turn the corner, then felt that she was turning away from God because she doubted the church. Eventually, as one proceeds through these faith disucssions, one starts to see the church organization as being separate from God and subject to human foibles and human dishonesty. That is disconcerting to them. They feel that they are on shaky ground, so they want to go back to their familiar, comfortable beliefs. It's kind of a two steps forward, one step back kind of a thing. It seems to happen in most religious cults where the leaders are seen as prophets receiving direct revelation from heavenly father.
Thank you for bringing up this important and relevant topic. -- Wndr.

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Angel
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Re: She seems close to the end sometimes

Post by Angel » Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:34 am

Conman52 wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:16 pm
Hi gang : Been sometime since I have visited and posted my own thread. I have missed you guys. Recently when all the financial dealings of ensign peak came out in the news I kept dropping hints and at one point came out and asked my TBM wife if she would want to belong to a dishonest organization?? She said no and we had a couple of other discussions about it and I was thinking her shelf was crashing then the next day she wouldn't even talk about it and doubled down. She was almost there !!!! What happens to those that almost turn the corner ?? I just don't get it !! What do you Nomies say ??
Let's say you are leaving a job, or perhaps graduating from school, going through some transition. A gradual disentanglement from the situation is often best, with time to fully process emotions, and perhaps form bridges within new communities. If it is possible to make an exit as smoothly and respectfully as possible, without anger, responsible - planned- no loose ends - thoughtful.

Patience, piece by piece, perhaps provide links to new structures/ new communities, weave in the new colors :)
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Palerider
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Re: She seems close to the end sometimes

Post by Palerider » Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:39 am

Good responses all.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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moksha
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Re: She seems close to the end sometimes

Post by moksha » Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:57 pm

Conman52 wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 4:16 pm
What happens to those that almost turn the corner??
Their programming is strong and they are able to emit enough gaslight to reinflate the balloon.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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MoPag
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Re: She seems close to the end sometimes

Post by MoPag » Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:32 pm

Angel wrote:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 7:34 am

Patience, piece by piece, perhaps provide links to new structures/ new communities, weave in the new colors :)
Try to realize that Mormon women have been taught to measure their worth and identity on being married to a worthy, believing priesthood holder. Your faith crisis is her identity crisis.

Like Angel said, bring new things into her life. Nurture a new hobby. Find new friends. Volunteer. Help her find more facets to her identity.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Culper Jr.
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Re: She seems close to the end sometimes

Post by Culper Jr. » Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:04 pm

MoPag wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:32 pm
Your faith crisis is her identity crisis.
Wow, that hits. So true and I never really thought of it like that.

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Red Ryder
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Re: She seems close to the end sometimes

Post by Red Ryder » Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:06 am

Next time you’re having a conversation about anything bothering her about the church that she specifically brings up, here’s what you do.

Politely recognize and validate her question.

Then confidently tell her to “give yourself permission” to question.

Then drop the mic and allow her to contemplate your three simple words.

“It’s OK, give yourself permission…”

You have to recognize that her shelf probably isn’t even half way fully loaded yet. It’s going to take time. If she gives herself permission, it will begin to crack.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

Keewon
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Re: She seems close to the end sometimes

Post by Keewon » Tue Apr 04, 2023 3:43 pm

I don't want to be guilty of "hypobole" (if there's such a word), but, well, people are complicated. I spent years trying to keep myself in the church. When I spent hours each week preparing Sunday school or priesthood lessons, I was really directing them to myself, trying to give myself permission to keep believing when all the evidence discredited my faith. I grieved my loss of faith; I ultimately just couldn't make my brain bend that way. Or at least, stay bent that way.

My personal take on OP is to work hard to convince DW, and keep her convinced, that you love and are proud of and happy with her just the way she is. You also need to convince yourself of that, of course! Ultimately, she's on her own journey to find herself and her place in this life, and you are a highly invested onlooker. Very likely she was groomed for years to be obedient to male authority, and this might be part of her resistance, although what you describe sounds more human-like than specifically Mormon-like.

All my best! :D

Keewon
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Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: She seems close to the end sometimes

Post by Keewon » Tue Apr 04, 2023 5:07 pm

... continuing on, I think it's important to remember that the "shelf" metaphor is just that- a metaphor - and even though a particular metaphor may be apt and useful, if pushed too far it will break and collapse. Just like a "shelf". :)

One reason I think the "shelf" metaphor is particularly apt is that I stumbled onto it years before I knew it was in common currency among the Mormon Disaffected. I had read Camilla Eyring Kimball's quotation about putting things you can't explain on your "shelf" until they make better sense later on, then years later when I learned about a particularly thorny faith challenge (I can't now remember what it was) the thought "I think my shelf just collapsed" popped into my head. Later on when I started reading NOM I learned that pretty much everyone here was using the expression, and decided the phrase must really capture the essence of what happens psychologically when the "last straw" descends on the poor old camel (another metaphor!!)

Another metaphor that really works for me is that of a jigsaw puzzle. When my "shelf collapsed", I found that rather than all the pieces being in disarray on the floor, they formed a clearly recognizable picture of the scientific evidence that contradicts the Church's claim of divine revelation. But I think it behooves all of us to do as Berke Breathed said in a "Bloom County" cartoon from years ago- we need to take the bull by the hand and refuse to mix our metaphors! :)

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