Steven Hassan interview on MS

[Red Ryder]

Did anyone else listen to the Steven Hassan interview on Mormon Stories?

I thought Steve did a great job of presenting his “exit” story from the moonies. When John tried to pin him down on why he was indoctrinated by them due to recent breaking up with his girlfriend, not knowing what he wanted to do in his future etc, Steve pushed back and said most people aren’t always the vulnerable idiots we think they are. He notes he had friends, a supportive family, and other things going on in his life that were meaningful. So he disregards the notion that people are susceptible targets because of their vulnerabilities and prefers to blame the group itself and the effective tactics used to recruit and brainwash. I’ve always looked back on my mission recruiting efforts and thought we were just finding super vulnerable people. I didn’t think that it was the pressure and sales tactics used that were effective. In my mind, we were simplify finding people that we could make better people through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I also appreciate that Steve doesn’t call the church a cult. He states that he only provides the knowledge and characteristics (BITE model) of cults and organizations and defers to the individual to apply their own discretion in labeling. John (as usual) attempted to push Steve into labeling Mormonism a cult with his pointed questions.

With that said, the church sounds like a duck, the church acts like a duck, and in my opinion it is a duck. And when I say duck, I really mean cult.

However, I can’t suggest that the church is a dangerous cult like some of the crazy ones we’ve all watched and read about. But it’s still a toxic organization built to keep members locked in for life.

At one point Steve and John are discussing the time it takes to reprogram and heal. Steve thinks it can be done quickly while John says it needs to take a few years. I think both have a vested interest in their respective timelines based on the product they sale. Steve has courses that take a year. John has his podcast that relies on donations. Of course their opinions would differ. However it was refreshing to hear from Steve that he thinks people can heal and move forward rebuilding their thoughts and lives post leaving their high demand organizations.

Overall, it was a great episode. It outlined so many similarities between the Moonies and the Mormons.

[Angel]

...most people aren’t always the vulnerable idiots we think they are. ... prefers to blame the group itself and the effective tactics used to recruit and brainwash.

That is a really interesting comment - I was watching an interview with someone from heaven's gate, and they were crying, saying what good people died... the neighbors talked about how nice they were. If you look at who they were - moms, students, businessmen, nurse, normal people.

People are social, we have a grocery group who sweet talked us into ordering their local organic farm food. People at work were using it, and they were sooo friendly and loving that we signed up for it to! Still using it, enjoy the food - I mean lots of groups are nice and come with a sales pitch and social pressure to join everyone else doing it - usually following those types of things isn't too harmful.

Everything we buy, every subscription, every group - 99.99% of it is ok - not perfect - but ok.

It wasn't us. It was them, we are not the horrible people for being sucked in , now I feel better about myself.

[græy]

At one point Steve and John are discussing the time it takes to reprogram and heal. Steve thinks it can be done quickly while John says it needs to take a few years.

It's also worth noting that John was in his duck for 45+ years, while Steve was only a member of his duck flock for 2.5 years. Steve was fairly deeply engrained, but maybe its easier to undo if its only had limited time to cement in.

[sparky]

I think the difference in time of recovery can largely if not entirely be attributed to how deeply one's social relationships (especially family) is enmeshed in the cult. Steven was in for approximately the length of a Mormon mission, had no family or real friends in the cult, had no family heritage in it, didn't even have a national/ethnic tie to it as it was based out of Korea. Not to discount the harm he experience, but that's paltry compared to a sixth generation Mormon born and raised in Utah.

The only thing keeping me from a full "recovery," however that's defined, is because I am still constantly bombarded with the messaging as I still participate to some degree with my wife, and having to constantly do cost benefit calculations on what my relationships can take.

[Red Ryder]

I think the difference in time of recovery can largely if not entirely be attributed to how deeply one's social relationships (especially family) is enmeshed in the cult. Steven was in for approximately the length of a Mormon mission, had no family or real friends in the cult, had no family heritage in it, didn't even have a national/ethnic tie to it as it was based out of Korea. Not to discount the harm he experience, but that's paltry compared to a sixth generation Mormon born and raised in Utah.

The only thing keeping me from a full "recovery," however that's defined, is because I am still constantly bombarded with the messaging as I still participate to some degree with my wife, and having to constantly do cost benefit calculations on what my relationships can take.

Totally agree.

I would have abandon all family and move across the country to significantly reduce my Mormon influence.

However, Steven also discusses the idea that you can repurpose your bad experiences. He suggests imagining what it would be like to have grown up without Mormonism and think through your thoughts that way.

For example, if I’m feeling anxiety walking into church each week, I can now walk in and say to myself “this zoo visit will be interesting! I’m going to observe the Mormons today from a physiological experiment viewpoint rather than as someone who was dragged by their spouse/family as an unwilling participant. Then walk in as an observer and not a PIMO annoyed by the boring routine.

Brain trickery

[sparky]

However, Steven also discusses the idea that you can repurpose your bad experiences. He suggests imagining what it would be like to have grown up without Mormonism and think through your thoughts that way.

Yes, I thought this was very useful practical advice. At another point he kind of admonished John for continually repeating the church's framing. I even wrote down the quote:

I think it's a critical thing I want to say to your listeners if they're former members: I'd really encourage you to stop using the group as your reference point for your identity and your reality, and think more about present "you" and future healthy "you" that you want to grow to become, and use that more as your center of gravity rather than reacting to the past.

I've been trying to do that, treat it all as just some weird hobby my family is into but I'm not at all, I can humor it to a point but have to have boundaries

[alas]

However, Steven also discusses the idea that you can repurpose your bad experiences. He suggests imagining what it would be like to have grown up without Mormonism and think through your thoughts that way.

Yes, I thought this was very useful practical advice. At another point he kind of admonished John for continually repeating the church's framing. I even wrote down the quote:

I think it's a critical thing I want to say to your listeners if they're former members: I'd really encourage you to stop using the group as your reference point for your identity and your reality, and think more about present "you" and future healthy "you" that you want to grow to become, and use that more as your center of gravity rather than reacting to the past.

I've been trying to do that, treat it all as just some weird hobby my family is into but I'm not at all, I can humor it to a point but have to have boundaries

I tried the “weird hobby my family is into” approach, but then I see the pain it caused my children and see them raising their kids in it. The desire to protect your grandchildren makes it impossible to see it as just a hobby. It is *Not* just a weird hobby, but a harmful cult when there are female or LGBT children having their self worth destroyed by being forever “not good enough”.

And I had a good comparison because two of my children got involved in Society for Creative Anachronisms and that is an all consuming weird hobby where they spend every spare dime on dressing up and pretending to be medieval Royalty. It takes a pretty penny to dress as royalty. That is an all consuming expensive hobby that can be destructive in *some* of the ways Mormonism can be destructive because of money time and it becomes everything in life. My middle child saw the down side and got out. My my oldest is still locked in because all her friends and her whole life has been built around it for 30 years now. She tried to get out but got sucked back in like an alcoholic whose friends all drink.

But it doesn’t destroy self esteem or guilt you or shame you or treat you as worthless. Weird hobbies are more of a money and time sucking addiction than a cult.

The “weird hobby” approach can work for parents and extended family, but it is just too painful too see innocent grandchildren harmed.