NOM

Taken from Reddit. I’m left speechless at this??

Really? Historical details don’t matter?

What teenage kid is going to read this and say “you’re right!” This level of malicious whitewash and gaslighting is incredible.

The phrasing reminds me of something I heard once. I think it was either a quote from Yuval Harari or from someone discussion Harari's writing, but it was that God has no power outside of stories.

In other words, "Historical details do not carry the saving power" (but maybe historical details are all we have).

In other words, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life." It's a nice thing to think, isn't it?

"Saving power of covenants, ordinance and doctrine."

All of which were invented (and plagiarized) by a man who's actions were that of a con-man and a sexual predator. The "pinnacle" of those ordinances were literally put in place to hide his sexual exploits with under-age girls, and other women in his community - including the wives of his cohorts.


Downplaying history just shouts "as honest as we know how to be" doesn't it?

Yeah, my TBM wife loved to go to that "historical details don't matter" crap. Drove me insane.

What I REALLLY loathe is that stupid false analogy about the gift in the box and focusing on the box instead of the gift. The "history", or origin of the "gift" is important. If the gift appears to be a beautiful diamond, but the true history of the gift is that it was manufactured in a glassware factory, then that would have a bearing on the worth and value of the gift. The analogy with the box just doesn't make any sense; it's complete BS, but it sounds good if you don't really think about it.

Unfortunately, the amount of effort it takes to refute BS is an order of magnitude greater than the amount of effort it takes to generate it.

Culper Jr. wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 11, 2023 5:24 pm

Yeah, my TBM wife loved to go to that "historical details don't matter" crap. Drove me insane.

It's just another way of saying "truth is scary."

Culper Jr. wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 11, 2023 5:24 pm

What I REALLLY loathe is that stupid false analogy about the gift in the box and focusing on the box instead of the gift.

"It's all about the candy, kids. Don't spend any time thinking about who gave you the candy, just take it," said the creepy guy in the van.

This is a perfect example of why I don't trust my kid to be taught at church - the idea that they're telling them to ignore everything they can see and read to focus on a box that you won't ever actually see if just awful.

I have a feeling that if you showed this to a Mormon and changed the wording to seem like another church they'd say this is the kind of thing that a cult does because it's so transparently awful.

Reminds me of a recent story out of India, and I only skimmed it, so I may not have all the details correct. A newly wed couple was given a wedding present, wrapped and mixed in with the other wedding gifts. When the groom plugged in the new sound system, it blew up killing him and a couple of his friends. It was from the new wife’s exboyfriend. So, even if the gift looks good, you need to know where it comes from. The history of the gift absolutely matters.

There is a discussion on Wheat and Tares about the historicity of the Book of Mormon and some people are essentially saying that the facts don’t matter, as in, who cares that the location of BoM cannot be found and there is zero archeological evidence, the STORY is what is important and it teaches us about God, bla bla bla. So, it doesn’t matter that Middle Earth doesn’t exist, if the story teaches us things, then that is all that matters for it to be *true*. There is no problem with the BoM being complete fiction, it is still true.

I just can’t figure out how people’s minds work for the BoM to be true, and complete fiction at the same time.

At least with the Bible, some of it does seem to be historical, and some we know is fiction. And yes, I DO want to know what parts are fiction. Do I have to believe that Adam and Eve were real people? Do I have to believe in talking donkeys? Or can I build reality around, you know, reality? I don’t want to believe in a God that answers prayers, if that isn’t reality. I don’t want to believe in fictional “saving ordinances” as if they are real because then I base my life around fiction, and maybe what is more important is saving for retirement rather than paying 10% of my income into a fancy corporate/church.

The problem these idiots truly don't understand is that covenants and ordinances performed on earth by men, have no intrinsic saving power. In Christ's time the "ordinances" were burnt offerings and animal sacrifices.

Mark 12:33 reads:

"And to love him (God) with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."

Matt. 9:13 reads:

"But go ye and learn what this meaneth, "I will have (prefer) mercy, and not sacrifice (ordinance of animal sacrifice)......"
Parentheses added by me.

God only gave the ordinances as symbols of a true sacrifice that was to come. What He truly prefers is mercy and love of God and one's neighbor.

One of the most pernicious false doctrines Joseph Smith ever taught was this:

D&C 84: 19-21

"Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.

And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh."

Totally untrue. Actually evil because it enables spiritual coercion.

The entire covenant is based upon the historical details. Without the historical details, there is no covenant, because there is no context for understanding what happened. The manifesting of the covenant is depending upon the historical details.
What manner of deceit and gaslighting is this? Is this a rehash of "some things that are true are not useful"? This is just more nonsense. Thank you for calling it out. It is infuriating, but it does need to be called out. -- Wndr.

That's certainly a departure from the Mormonism I was taught, which was essentially fixating on details of church history to prove the church is true. It still feels like a large percentage of lessons at church are dedicated to that end goal.

Maybe it's unintended but that slide acknowledges that they know the historical details don't make the church's truth claims look very good. Why else would they be saying that?

To be distracted by the less significant details at the expense of missing the unfolding miracle of the Restoration is like spending time analyzing a gift box and ignoring the wonder of the gift itself.

There's a lesson that church leaders never grasped... at best the church should be the box, not the gift. The church should be a delivery system to teach people to live Christlike principles, not the end prize. The church believes itself to be the pearl of great price but they're just another box.

The collective narcissism of the church culture likes to make the church the center of attention but if it's really trying to be a Christian church then Christ's teachings should be at the center. So much of the church's energy is spent addressing their insecurity about being a "true" church that they've neglected the responsibility of helping people follow Christ's actual teachings. In short, we don't teach charity at church, we teach "please believe we're true."

alas wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 11, 2023 7:31 pm

Do I have to believe that Adam and Eve were real people? Do I have to believe in talking donkeys?

You do if you're Mormon.

Palerider wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 11, 2023 7:52 pm

The problem these idiots truly don't understand is that covenants and ordinances performed on earth by men, have no intrinsic saving power. In Christ's time the "ordinances" were burnt offerings and animal sacrifices.

I think the value that they provide is the following:

1. I'm worried about making it to heaven (or pleasing god).
2. If I do this ordinance I'm on the path.
3. I did the ordinance.
4. I can stop worrying (or worry less).

That's it.

If you're not that worried to begin with, the ordinance loses its power. If you are the worrying sort, the ordinance can get you to stop worrying and on to more productive activities.

This invisible sweater does not seem tight at all, it is sure to keep me warm if I also wear a down coat.

Don't worry about ... the foundation of your house... the origin of scriptures.. the origin of doctrines .. the origin of ordinances.. don't worry about where that food came from, just put it in your mouth, chew (don't taste), swallow.

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 11, 2023 5:48 pm

Culper Jr. wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 11, 2023 5:24 pm

Yeah, my TBM wife loved to go to that "historical details don't matter" crap. Drove me insane.

It's just another way of saying "truth is scary."

The people knowingly pushing this crap while are slimy. But I have some pity for those who buy it.

As a believer I sincerely thought that I had the truth so those details really didn't matter. The truth wasn't scary, I just already had it so there was no need to look over there. I was afraid of losing the truth. Unfortunately I was misled by well-meaning people and the indoctrination worked on me for a long time.

Linked wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 12, 2023 4:23 pm

Hagoth wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 11, 2023 5:48 pm

Culper Jr. wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 11, 2023 5:24 pm

Yeah, my TBM wife loved to go to that "historical details don't matter" crap. Drove me insane.

It's just another way of saying "truth is scary."

The people knowingly pushing this crap while are slimy. But I have some pity for those who buy it.

As a believer I sincerely thought that I had the truth so those details really didn't matter. The truth wasn't scary, I just already had it so there was no need to look over there. I was afraid of losing the truth. Unfortunately I was misled by well-meaning people and the indoctrination worked on me for a long time.

As a believer, I thought deeper truth was in the details, great sacrifice, that only the elect could handle it.

If you can't handle it yet, ignore it.


It's not until seeing the similarities with other cults it sinks in what it all really is

I think seminary has a point…historical details really don’t matter.
In other news, I heard from an Unreliable source that BYU is creating a new building called the Warren Jeffs Center for Women. Sounds like a step in the right direction…