Filling the whole Earth

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blazerb
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Filling the whole Earth

Post by blazerb » Thu Apr 27, 2023 9:07 am

The Widow's Mite Report has their analysis of the SEC violation committed by the 1st Presidency. It started me looking around at how much they say the church has. I found that information here: https://widowsmitereport.wordpress.com/2022update/. Currently the church has about $236 billion in assets. When I compare to the market capitalization of the largest companies in the world (https://companiesmarketcap.com/), the church would be number 39 on the list if it were publicly traded. I am not sure if this is the correct comparison, so if someone wants to compare to something more meaningful, I'd like to know.

The church's money has grown very fast. 20 years ago, it would have been somewhere around number 500. Still respectable, I know. However, the church is now worth more than McDonald's, Boeing, and Disney. These companies have been around for a long time. I would guess that one reason for the church's growth is that it does not pay taxes. It also has tithing coming in without providing much in the way of services compared to other corporations. The money comes in with very little cost.

What if the whole "stone cut out of a mountain without hands that fills the whole Earth" is not about membership? What if it's about corporate size and power? I don't seriously believe that the church is fulfilling prophecy. I am more interested in how much time passes before the church is too big to be constrained by society. Is the goal of the leaders not just self-sustaining income but enough power that no one dares to cross them?

Gatorbait
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Re: Filling the whole Earth

Post by Gatorbait » Thu Apr 27, 2023 9:32 am

Points well taken. Not sure where the $236 B number came from for the church assets, but I'm pretty sure it could be higher than that, but I'm not expert. Lots of land holdings hither and thither, tax free. Those have to be worth quite a lot of moola.

The widow's mite has forever struck me as wrong-minded. For crying out loud, why should poor people be bullied by guilt into paying tithing? "We should give freely of our own free will" Right. It is more like "Pay at that window, or burn in hell."

Interesting post though. Thanks.
"Let no man count himself righteous who permits a wrong he could avert". N.N. Riddell

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wtfluff
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Re: Filling the whole Earth

Post by wtfluff » Thu Apr 27, 2023 10:30 am

blazerb wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2023 9:07 am
...
Is the goal of the leaders not just self-sustaining income but enough power that no one dares to cross them?
Doesn't the D&C basically say that MORmONism will become the theocracy that rules the entire world?

The stooges at the top probably truly believe that will actually happen. It's going to take piles and piles of $$$$$$ to get there, so... (Keep paying your tithes and offerings.)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Red Ryder
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Re: Filling the whole Earth

Post by Red Ryder » Fri Apr 28, 2023 6:35 am

I asked ChatGPT how it would compare if it was a Fortune 500 and write a response in Snoop Dogg style.
Yo dawg, check it. The Mormon Church ain't no biz, so they ain't on the Fortune 500 list. They a non-profit religious crew with a whole different financial structure, ya feel me? But don't get it twisted, they still got some serious paper. They got this investment arm called Ensign Peak Advisors that's managing like $100 billion, making them one of the biggest and most low-key investment players on the planet, ya dig?

Now, some folks been raising questions about the church's finances, saying they're stashing cash and misusing funds. But here's the deal - as a religious organization, they ain't gotta report their cheddar like a public company, so it's hard to say how they really stack up. But one thing's for sure, they got some serious clout in the financial game.
Rewrite listing real estate holdings…
Yo, what's up? The Mormon Church ain't no regular business, so they don't play in the Fortune 500 game. They're all about the religious mission, ya know what I'm sayin'? But don't get it twisted, they still got major real estate game. Here's just a taste of what they're holdin':

- City Creek Center in Salt Lake City, Utah: This upscale mall covers 23 acres and has more than 100 stores, including high-end brands like Tiffany & Co. and Louis Vuitton.
- Beneficial Life Tower in Salt Lake City, Utah: This 28-story building serves as the church's headquarters and houses various offices and departments.
- Deseret Ranches in Florida: This massive ranch covers over 290,000 acres and is one of the largest cow-calf operations in the United States.
- Polynesian Cultural Center in Hawaii: This 42-acre cultural theme park showcases Polynesian culture and history and attracts over a million visitors each year.
- Temple Square in Salt Lake City, Utah: This iconic square covers 10 acres and includes several buildings and monuments, including the Salt Lake Temple and the Tabernacle.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg, my friend. The Mormon Church is sitting on some serious real estate holdings, but they ain't in it for the money.They're all about spreading the word and doing good in the world, ya dig?
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

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Hagoth
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Re: Filling the whole Earth

Post by Hagoth » Fri Apr 28, 2023 4:22 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2023 10:30 am
The stooges at the top probably truly believe that will actually happen. It's going to take piles and piles of $$$$$$ to get there, so... (Keep paying your tithes and offerings.)
Yes, they call it Building the Kingdom of God on Earth. That's their justification for all of this.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Filling the whole Earth

Post by Hagoth » Fri Apr 28, 2023 4:32 pm

Gatorbait wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2023 9:32 am
The widow's mite has forever struck me as wrong-minded.
Yes! I read that parable as a condemnation of wealthy authority figures who are happy to see a starving person give their last cent to the corporation (or temple, in the case of the parable). They could help her, but instead they sit back and watch her starve because of her devotion and unselfishness.

Same with the parable of the unprofitable servant. The lord who praises the servants that made the most money by investing is not God, the way people read it, he is the villain of the story. All he cares about is growing his wealth, and he's doing it by usury. Unless I am mistaken about this, in the Judaism of Jesus' time it was considered sinful to amass wealth without sharing it with the poorer members of the community, and doubly sinful to do so via usury.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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blazerb
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Re: Filling the whole Earth

Post by blazerb » Fri Apr 28, 2023 5:36 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 4:32 pm
Gatorbait wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2023 9:32 am
The widow's mite has forever struck me as wrong-minded.
Yes! I read that parable as a condemnation of wealthy authority figures who are happy to see a starving person give their last cent to the corporation (or temple, in the case of the parable). They could help her, but instead they sit back and watch her starve because of her devotion and unselfishness.

Same with the parable of the unprofitable servant. The lord who praises the servants that made the most money by investing is not God, the way people read it, he is the villain of the story. All he cares about is growing his wealth, and he's doing it by usury. Unless I am mistaken about this, in the Judaism of Jesus' time it was considered sinful to amass wealth without sharing it with the poorer members of the community, and doubly sinful to do so via usury.
I find the teachings of Jesus around money to be very confusing. I can read the widow's mite story as a condemnation of the religious leaders for putting the woman in her situation. I agree that the unprofitable servant seems to depict a wicked man, but he also seems to be in control of the kingdom. The parable of the unrighteous steward is even more bizarre. It praises dishonest but legal behavior. It also counsels us to make friends of unrighteous mammon. I feel like any attempt to make these stories consistent with common decency requires some twisting.

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Hagoth
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Re: Filling the whole Earth

Post by Hagoth » Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:39 pm

blazerb wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 5:36 pm
I feel like any attempt to make these stories consistent with common decency requires some twisting.
The big question, I suppose, is did the historical Jesus actually say any of that stuff, and even if he did how badly did it get mangled in the decades of playing the telephone game, and how many unintended changes of meaning did it go through before anyone wrote it down?

That aside, how could a bunch of guys who hold themselves up as witnesses of Christ talk each other into believing that all Jesus wants them to do is amass mindboggling amounts of wealth, even if they have to lie and commit fraud, and not even consider using any of it to do actual charitable deeds? It must be really great to be so high on the Jesus juice that you can elevate yourself above his authority and wantonly ignore his teachings.

Maybe they actually despise Jesus, and they're thumbing their noses at him. "Ha ha, we have the second anointing. We can do whatever we want and you still have to make us gods."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: Filling the whole Earth

Post by moksha » Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:04 am

The question must be asked as to whether a corporation given tax-free status as a charitable institution, can forever get away with growing its money in the stock market and real estate investments and be a for-profit entity.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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blazerb
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Re: Filling the whole Earth

Post by blazerb » Sat Apr 29, 2023 9:40 am

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:39 pm
The big question, I suppose, is did the historical Jesus actually say any of that stuff, and even if he did how badly did it get mangled in the decades of playing the telephone game, and how many unintended changes of meaning did it go through before anyone wrote it down?
Good point. Talmage still affects my thoughts about Jesus too much.
moksha wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:04 am
The question must be asked as to whether a corporation given tax-free status as a charitable institution, can forever get away with growing its money in the stock market and real estate investments and be a for-profit entity.
This is a question for our society. I'm sure the church will leverage its connections to senators and legislators to try to make sure the answer is "yes." I don't know if antitrust laws will prevent the corporation from getting too big. It might require new laws to deal with this.

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Hagoth
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Re: Filling the whole Earth

Post by Hagoth » Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:19 pm

blazerb wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2023 9:40 am
I don't know if antitrust laws will prevent the corporation from getting too big. It might require new laws to deal with this.
This is a great reason to frame your corporation as a church, so you can cheat people out of their money by promising fantasy returns but never face consequences because you are floating it on the religious freedom barge. The most we can hope for, I think, is that charitable organizations may someday have to be financially transparent to claim tax exception. But things seem to be going in the other direction. Religious freedom is a stand-your-ground protection that shields churches from accountability.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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blazerb
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Re: Filling the whole Earth

Post by blazerb » Sun Apr 30, 2023 10:53 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2023 7:19 pm
Religious freedom is a stand-your-ground protection that shields churches from accountability.
That is an interesting analogy. I'll be thinking about it for a long time.

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