SELFLESS: Why "You" Are a Social Creation

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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Linked
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SELFLESS: Why "You" Are a Social Creation

Post by Linked » Thu May 04, 2023 4:40 pm

Social psychologist and Stanford professor Brian Lowery wrote a book about how "you" are a social construct, and not a being unto yourself. He was on the The Next Big Idea podcast promoting the book. It was interesting, particularly some of the takeaways for people here who are stuck with one foot in a community that we don't agree with.

I took away 3 main points:
1 - Your family, friends, teachers, etc. determine a big part of who "you" are, you wouldn't be you without those experiences.

2 - Who you are immediately with and your relationship to them is part of the definition of "you". (A man in a suit at burning man is a different person than a man in a suit in an office building)

3 - Declaring that you are something can be a statement about a group and it should be no surprise that people in that group have feelings about that. (Example was the woman who later identified as Black but had two white parents. When found out she was rejected by the Black community.)


Points 2 is interesting to consider for one who no longer believes in the truth claims of mormonism but is in a mormon community. Our relationship to the mormon community is apostate and bad, no matter how good or moral you are. Your apostasy is the overwhelmingly important part of who you are. There is little room for positive feedback from the community. Being in the community will always be a little painful.

Point 3 is similarly interesting. Of course they give talks about how we are led away, the existence of moral and honest people who are on a right path who don't believe destroys mormonism. It removes the need for the church if the church is not capital T "True" and there are other valid ways of living.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Ghost
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Re: SELFLESS: Why "You" Are a Social Creation

Post by Ghost » Fri May 05, 2023 9:38 am

Personal identity is one of my favorite philosophical topics. I assume this isn't an argument for 100% nurture and 0% nature, but just emphasis on nurture. I'm persuaded by the idea that the self as we currently think of it is just a comforting illusion. Might have to read this book.

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Re: SELFLESS: Why "You" Are a Social Creation

Post by Hagoth » Mon May 08, 2023 12:05 pm

I finally listened to that episode. While I don't agree that personal identity is purely a composite of our social environment, there is no doubt that is a huge component of who we are and how we view ourselves and the world. It really makes sense why people who suddenly find themselves in faith crisis can end up feeling completely turned upside down. For someone heavily invested in the LDS church, it is pretty much who we are and explains all of our relationships with others and with the cosmos. When we lose faith/trust in the leaders and tenets of that worldview, we may no longer know who we are. Is it any wonder people will go to such great lengths to avoid even seriously considering alternative worldviews?

But the other thing the discussion made me realize is that if members of an organization and social community have a "self" that is a product of that environment, how much more so do the people at the top of the pyramid have a manufactured sense of importance in their self concept? Think of, I dunno, a billionaire reality TV star who becomes the president, or a person who is considered by millions to be the prophet, seer and revelator for the entire world. These kinds of individuals float in a cloud of people who are chosen almost purely for their loyalty to that person and are primarily motivated by the need to ensure that person believes they are everything their followers believe them to be, which includes themselves. The result is a tightly controlled feedback loop that feeds the ego of the central personality.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Wonderment
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Re: SELFLESS: Why "You" Are a Social Creation

Post by Wonderment » Mon May 08, 2023 9:47 pm

Points 2 is interesting to consider for one who no longer believes in the truth claims of mormonism but is in a mormon community. Our relationship to the mormon community is apostate and bad, no matter how good or moral you are. Your apostasy is the overwhelmingly important part of who you are. There is little room for positive feedback from the community. Being in the community will always be a little painful.
An "apostate" is a social construct, as is an "outlier" or "sinner" a "gentile" or anyone else who is not a part of the church. Church members have their own reality, in which other people are classified in terms of church membership. They are either part of the group, or they are not. Many churches or religious groups operate the same way.

You either believe the church teachings and covenants, in which case you are part of them and are granted eternal life, or you are not. It is a very clear divide on the part of church members. You're either with them or against them. If you're a non-believer, then you're subject to their assertion that you're either wicked or tempted by the adversary.

That is why so many people, including young people who have left the church, seek counseling and work on cognitive behavioral therapy. They are trying to reframe their own identity.

This is why, when I read "Mormon mommy" blogs, I tend to recoil, because if their many children grow up and decide to leave the church, their entire identity has to be re-worked. It's especially true of the intense pressure put on children by their parents. The mother is validated by the church for producing sons who will join the patriarchy and serve a mission. LIkewise, there is intense pressure put on girls to marry early in a temple ceremony and to commence immediately on birthing children. They psychological pressure is overwhelming. - Wndr.

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Linked
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Re: SELFLESS: Why "You" Are a Social Creation

Post by Linked » Tue May 09, 2023 12:07 pm

Ghost wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 9:38 am
Personal identity is one of my favorite philosophical topics. I assume this isn't an argument for 100% nurture and 0% nature, but just emphasis on nurture. I'm persuaded by the idea that the self as we currently think of it is just a comforting illusion. Might have to read this book.
I'm with you, this kind of stuff is super interesting. As a believer I still remember the excitement when considering God's name "I AM" as a declaration that he was the creator and controller of self.

The author hinted in the interview that he was being a bit over the top with the claims because that gets more attention, but he seems to be further on the nurture side.
Hagoth wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 12:05 pm
But the other thing the discussion made me realize is that if members of an organization and social community have a "self" that is a product of that environment, how much more so do the people at the top of the pyramid have a manufactured sense of importance in their self concept? Think of, I dunno, a billionaire reality TV star who becomes the president, or a person who is considered by millions to be the prophet, seer and revelator for the entire world. These kinds of individuals float in a cloud of people who are chosen almost purely for their loyalty to that person and are primarily motivated by the need to ensure that person believes they are everything their followers believe them to be, which includes themselves. The result is a tightly controlled feedback loop that feeds the ego of the central personality.
That's an interesting point. Those at and near the top may be the most shaped by the community out of necessity. They also have the most power to shape the community as well. I wonder how hard it would be to fake it?
Wonderment wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 9:47 pm
Points 2 is interesting to consider for one who no longer believes in the truth claims of mormonism but is in a mormon community. Our relationship to the mormon community is apostate and bad, no matter how good or moral you are. Your apostasy is the overwhelmingly important part of who you are. There is little room for positive feedback from the community. Being in the community will always be a little painful.
An "apostate" is a social construct, as is an "outlier" or "sinner" a "gentile" or anyone else who is not a part of the church. Church members have their own reality, in which other people are classified in terms of church membership. They are either part of the group, or they are not. Many churches or religious groups operate the same way.

You either believe the church teachings and covenants, in which case you are part of them and are granted eternal life, or you are not. It is a very clear divide on the part of church members. You're either with them or against them. If you're a non-believer, then you're subject to their assertion that you're either wicked or tempted by the adversary.

That is why so many people, including young people who have left the church, seek counseling and work on cognitive behavioral therapy. They are trying to reframe their own identity.

This is why, when I read "Mormon mommy" blogs, I tend to recoil, because if their many children grow up and decide to leave the church, their entire identity has to be re-worked. It's especially true of the intense pressure put on children by their parents. The mother is validated by the church for producing sons who will join the patriarchy and serve a mission. LIkewise, there is intense pressure put on girls to marry early in a temple ceremony and to commence immediately on birthing children. They psychological pressure is overwhelming. - Wndr.
Being surrounded by people who you feel think of you as lost/evil/stupid can be hard even if you are comfortable with moving on to a new identity. And the attacks on your new self are felt in so many ways from actual attacks to just hearing certain words that reinforce the idea that others don't accept who you are.

The social pressure is immense. I think my biggest job for my kids in a mixed-faith marriage is to defuse the pressure. So when grandma says "when you go on a mission..." my kids know that the "when" is really an "if" and they truly have a choice. Hopefully I can help my DW deal with the sense of failure she must feel that I'm not a believer and that her kids get a legitimate choice.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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