Hate vs. Indifference

[Gatorbait]

Most of us are familiar with the Elie Wiesel quote, "The opposite of love is not hate, the opposite of love is indifference."

Went to Sac mtg and SS today with our TBM son and his wife and family. Small ward in western Idaho. I didn't want to go but since my son was teaching Gospel Doctrine he asked my wife and I to go. I rarely go to church when I'm traveling or any other time, but decided to attend with them.

We struggled through a boring Sac mtg, same old blather from a stake RS president who spent the first five minutes of her talk yammering on about choosing her topic, the stake, as if anyone cares about the stake. Steak, yes. Stake? Hell no. Her talk was one of the pointless ones, regurgitating the same drivel that some gen authority gave in conference. Sang "I thank thee of God for a profit....er prophet". Hated it. Long mtg, but I read stuff on my phone so I made use of the time. In any case, I made it through.

So the meeting ends, son dashes off to get crap for his SS lesson, daughter in law dashes off to primary, and my wife and I are left alone. As we were making our way to the front of the chapel, where SS was going to be taught, we got many looks from the regular Ward members. They'd give us a once over, noted that the did not know us, did their mental evaluation of us, and turned away, ignoring us. We got one hello from a guy who was busily shaking everyone's hand in the ward- we know that type, and one kind lady said hello, in a kind and loving way. After we took our seat in the chapel- same thing- no one said a thing to us. After the meeting- basically the same thing as we worked our way out of the chapel and church. We drove separate cars so we didn't have to wait around for the fam.

Well boys and girls, I have learned not to take things personally, but it was a disappointment to be treated with indifference from members of the only true church "restored" from the Lord and God the Father themselves. The people had a lot to say to each other, but acted as if they didn't have the time to waste on the likes of us. I thought of the famous quote from Rhett Butler in "Gone with the Wind", "Frankly my dear- I don't give a sh*t". If they are going to be that way, it's fine by me. Let them. To me, this is way the church has become stagnant. It's dying on the vine so to speak. These people who know the "truth" have already got it, and it's not important to them to reach out to strangers, like we were. Was there any love showed? A tiny bit from that one lady. Was it hate? Nope. What is was was indifference. They just did not care about us. Not worth the bother. Not worth the effort. Who cares about them anyhow?
It's quite unsettling, but the lesson learned- still don't take anything personally, and don't bother to attend the Mormon church when we visit our son's family. Not worth the aggravation.

Of course, it will be a waste of time to tell him of our experience because he will either deny it or turn it around and ask me if I tried to engage with anyone. I'll tell him no, and he will draw the conclusion that it is on me because I was acting like a prick and they didn't want to talk to me. Can't use that on my wife because she's nice as pie.

In any case I will go on record with this, cause I'm not keen on going to their ward again any time soon.

[Red Ryder]

Here’s my take.

Members are extremely exhausted. Half don’t want to be there ever. The other half don’t want to be there that day. And the boring monotony of sacrament meeting with a GC talk leaves a half day hangover. Add in the phone screen avoidance time and people are rather zombie like once sacrament meeting is over.

So if a nice clean cut couple shows up at sacrament meeting, everyone notices at the BEGINNING of the meeting. They take a mental note who you are with. Active member that always attends? Perfect! They don’t have to stop and say hi. You’re part of the tribe! They can be at ease.

If a clean cut couple shows up at sacrament meeting WITHOUT attachment to a regular attending member, then it’s assumed they are either new or visiting? In order to determine tribal status, a quick introduction and hello is in order. Just visiting? Welcome! New? Where do you live? Have you met the bishop yet? Pleasantries exchanged.

If a disheveled person/couple shows up at sacrament meeting, everyone automatically knows/assumes they are NON-MEMBERS and makes an attempt to introduce and point out the missionaries. They’re not part of the tribe AND the member just transferred responsibility to the missionaries! Whew! They can go back to their zombie trance and gear up for 48 minutes of Sunday school. 47…, 46…., 45…. Almost home!

The point I’m trying to make is that you fit into the tribe! You were safe as you were with your TBM son.

Mormon relationships are rather shallow. They end when you move from the ward. They end when you stop laying tithing and wearing garments. They end when you make progressive nuance comments. They end when you stop fitting into the tribe.

So consider your visit a success! You pleased your son by attending without having to make a temporary new friend. That’s a win in my book. But I’m also purposely introverted when it comes to meeting new people I know I won’t see again. Pleasantries is all you’re getting from me.

[Angel]

Heirarchies - not for the people by the people - by the pope for the pope. If your family isn't related to the bishop or stake president, isn't the nephew of a GA, well, untouchables bow down and lather on the attention, others sit back and soak it up.

It's a power game. People in a heirarchy talk to those who help them climb the ladder.

Strange - members seem to think the constitution was inspired by god, but they do not take - all mankind created equal - "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:3. - it's priest, higher priest, higher and higher - no equality, just social games to claw to the top.

Push others down with gossip, push your own family up with bragging. Had bad luck? You'll get attention - in order to push your whole family down.

[Gatorbait]

Feeling a bit weary today, looking back at what I wrote now seems a bit like whining, and that was not my purpose.

The thing is, I was sorely disappointed with the treatment from an small west Idaho ward far removed from Utah. In Utah, I would have not been surprised. There, the things that Angel said are totally spot on. Power game. Climb the ladder. Prove you are better than others because the good Lord picked you above all the others to be the leader of the pack. The same holds true in eastern Idaho as well, and then some, especially Idaho Falls and Rexburg. Sickening stuff the way the members there- a lot of them- have their noses so far in the air it is snowing on them.

Life is too short to give a hoot what others think in any case, and for me it seems that I can feel the hell hounds getting closer all the time. Sometimes I can feel their breath on the back of my neck. Part of why, as many of you, I gave the Mormon church the old "heave ho" so that I could enjoy what's left of my life without the damn guilt trips, or having to feel like I had to pay to play.

Liked what Red Ryder said as well. When you feel like you are no longer a part of the tribe, but it did please my son, and I never did tell him what I thought of his unfriendly ward. I doubt it would have done a bit of good in any case.

[Meilingkie]

Hello Gatorbait,

This sound all too familiar. The only people who care are those that actually cared about you anyway.
Went to church a few times last 2 months. To help and support an old friend who's going through a divorce now.

It's only the bishop who cares, and my friends extended family. They all attend the small ward 15 miles away. And they all nodded and understood I would not ever visit my assigned ward. Because my inlaws attend there, and the Bishop-from-Hell presides over there.
Heck, even the new SP I talked with understood my reasoning.
And the bishop cares because we were old colleagues in the High Council and he's the FIL of another good exmo-friend.

The old hands that knew me when I got baptized in 1997 are all happy to see me, all new people yawn and turn their back.
Oh well....

[Angel]

I haven't attended since meetings changed - there's now just 2 meetings? Indifference vs. community - before leaving I requested approval of support group - to gather with others who had all experienced similar 'trials'. I did meet with a support group, but not a church sanctioned one. In my area, men had a support group - addiction recovery -aka abusersRUs enabler grp - but women/children/victims were not allowed to form a grp. I also suggested forming a group for those who were questioning their testimony - that idea was also shot down by the stake too. - classes and groups were organized with intent to silence and isolate victims, to silence those with questions, and unite/strengthen those who supported the male heirarchy (abusers were supported, good-old-boys *special* groups met to rationalize/forgive/pat one another on backs... )
Indifference - refuse eye contact with kids, wives, don't look at, avoid those abused. Excommunicate- silence - indifference - quite effective tool. The bishop sat in on relief society to keep me silent there too. The list of the silenced - those not allowed to say prayer, not allowed to talk in meetings, those told to stay silent - anyone else here who was on that list?

[Hagoth]

The list of the silenced - those not allowed to say prayer, not allowed to talk in meetings, those told to stay silent - anyone else here who was on that list?

Once I came out to the guys I worked with in YM I no longer got asked to speak, pray, or teach, but I was never told to be quiet, except maybe when the bishop shut me down when I tried to have conversations with about issues from the Gospel Topic essays. He said he didn't want to hear anything that would hurt his testimony. I found out yesterday that he is no longer active.

[Angel]

The list of the silenced - those not allowed to say prayer, not allowed to talk in meetings, those told to stay silent - anyone else here who was on that list?

Once I came out to the guys I worked with in YM I no longer got asked to speak, pray, or teach, but I was never told to be quiet, except maybe when the bishop shut me down when I tried to have conversations with about issues from the Gospel Topic essays. He said he didn't want to hear anything that would hurt his testimony. I found out yesterday that he is no longer active.

My first encounter with the list - my VT partner was put on it. Part of her punishment for sex before marriage was being told to be silent. Not a private punishment, everyone in leadership in ward was also told - don't call on Sr. ####, don't ask her to pray - she's not allowed to right now.

Looking back, quite amazing the *punishment * men recieved vs the punishment women received. I know adulterers, and a child molester who did not so much as get temple recommend taken away - they just had to attend the recovery group.

I was not told straight up I wasn't allowed to give prayer like my VT parter was, but I was told meetings were not a place for questions - I was to to privately read scriptures for my questions not talk to anyone. It was quite eloquent how I was told to be quiet, I didn't argue with them at the time, was still trying to make it work. Other women felt intimidated by me - bishop sat in on RS to calm their nerves, I never intentionally disrupted class. My skism- I had a career day for YW, and helped run YM career day (I'm a professor, talked to everyone about college). Big group of YM, only 2 YW attended because... women don't have careers... my career made me unpopular.

My oldest kiddo disrupted meeting. They showed up with men's clothing on and men's haircut with one of their friends. They never said anything, just showed up dressed in a white button down shirt and tie - their once long hair cut off - their last time at church, went to say goodbye. Only one person talked to them and that was by mistake - mistook them for my middle son rather than my oldest. Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were ####....

[Hagoth]

... but I was told meetings were not a place for questions.

Questions waste valuable brainwashing time!

[Angel]

... but I was told meetings were not a place for questions.

Questions waste valuable brainwashing time!

Yes, questions are viewed as personal attacks by the insecure who go to church for validation and approval. If it's not "uplifting" - divorce? Child abuse? Unemployment? If it's not uplifting - the "spirit" flies away and everyone leaves grumpy. Happy thoughts and comments only only allowed to talk about trials years after they were miraculously resolved - not allowed to say anything while in the midst of it, no one wants to feel responsible to help, no one wants to get involved during - no mandated reporting etc. Avoid saying/doing anything during the troubles - only fuzzy distorted validation memories of the event years later are allowed.

[alas]

... but I was told meetings were not a place for questions.

Questions waste valuable brainwashing time!

Yes, questions are viewed as personal attacks by the insecure who go to church for validation and approval. If it's not "uplifting" - divorce? Child abuse? Unemployment? If it's not uplifting - the "spirit" flies away and everyone leaves grumpy. Happy thoughts and comments only only allowed to talk about trials years after they were miraculously resolved - not allowed to say anything while in the midst of it, no one wants to feel responsible to help, no one wants to get involved during - no mandated reporting etc. Avoid saying/doing anything during the troubles - only fuzzy distorted validation memories of the event years later are allowed.

I have been on the unofficial disfellowship list. No calling, no talks, no prayers. Once for years, while my close friend the RSP kept putting in my name for callings and the bishop kept turning her down, with no reason ever given. That was because bishop thought I was unworthy because I wasn’t totally healed from childhood abuse. I must be doing something sinful or it wouldn’t have damaged me.

The second time, I think my job just made people nervous. I was counseling rape and sexual abuse victims. That time, I went about 15 years with no calling mainly because the women in leadership were just not submitting my name. I finally told my HT who was bishopric over Sunday School that I wanted to teach a family relations class. But that lasted the 4 month cycle and back to no calling.

[Hagoth]

... but I was told meetings were not a place for questions.

Questions waste valuable brainwashing time!

Yes, questions are viewed as personal attacks by the insecure who go to church for validation and approval. If it's not "uplifting" - divorce? Child abuse? Unemployment? If it's not uplifting - the "spirit" flies away and everyone leaves grumpy. Happy thoughts and comments only only allowed to talk about trials years after they were miraculously resolved - not allowed to say anything while in the midst of it, no one wants to feel responsible to help, no one wants to get involved during - no mandated reporting etc. Avoid saying/doing anything during the troubles - only fuzzy distorted validation memories of the event years later are allowed.

LDS meetings are all about proclaiming the "truth," testifying of the "truth," supporting each other in our unique possession of the truth," so it seems really ironic that nothing is more unacceptable in that environment than talking about The Truth.

[Angel]

I have been on the unofficial disfellowship list. No calling, no talks, no prayers. Once for years, while my close friend the RSP kept putting in my name for callings and the bishop kept turning her down, with no reason ever given. That was because bishop thought I was unworthy because I wasn’t totally healed from childhood abuse. I must be doing something sinful or it wouldn’t have damaged me.

The second time, I think my job just made people nervous. I was counseling rape and sexual abuse victims. That time, I went about 15 years with no calling mainly because the women in leadership were just not submitting my name. I finally told my HT who was bishopric over Sunday School that I wanted to teach a family relations class. But that lasted the 4 month cycle and back to no calling.

Wouldn't have damaged... the narrative about refined in the fire, cutting branches from tree, chipping stone - the narrative of "getting cut down is good for you" evaporates when the child ends up autistic, ends up rejecting their gender, ends up with permanent disabilities.

Bravo to you for reaching out to counsel others. I've seen the pattern now - those who stay quiet, rationalize their own abuse, then quietly rationalize their son's abuse, their husband's abuse... vs those who face it, end the cycle.

[Angel]

LDS meetings are all about proclaiming the "truth," testifying of the "truth," supporting each other in our unique possession of the truth," so it seems really ironic that nothing is more unacceptable in that environment than talking about The Truth.

tru·ther
/ˈtro͞oTHər/
nounINFORMAL•US
a person who doubts the generally accepted account of an event, believing that an official conspiracy exists to conceal the true explanation; a conspiracy theorist.
"she denied evolution, AIDS/HIV, and was a 9/11 truther"

Dualistic mindset, to understanding there is no "truth".

I have an entire error analysis lecture on it . What is the "true" temperature of this room? What is the error? How far off from the "true" value are we? Is error defined by true value? Where did comparison value come from? Does average = true? Median, mean, mode? Haha, Engineering isn't an "exact " science - don't trust anyone who gives you an exact number.

[Angel]

Ok, reading my previous posts - let me expand my understanding of what a "truther" is.

Truther - I belong to the one and only "true" church (everyone else is false, everyone else is part of the "great and abominable church" only my church is true. This works for countries - my country is #1, everyone else is oppressed. It works for political views - only my political view is right, everyone else is misled.

A fb friend recently posted:
"I know my religion is good," is a reasonable testimony. "I know my religion is true" is nonsense.

"truther" for anything is nonsense. religion, politics, country, diet, vaccines - there is no perfect "true" solution to any of it.

Some of the replies:
- Militant unhealthy nationalism is to healthy patriotism as obsession is to loyalty/love. Supporting community vs unhealthy groupthink/conformity usright/youwrong mentality. Bingo!

-A guy in a loud pickup with two flags flying and going 40 over the limit is NOT a patriot. Patriotism is not pride in country, but love of countrymen.

-I no longer use the term "patriot" due to its current use as a divider rather than someone who has a love of country. I hate the word. Americans have undue pride in the term, and love to say that no one else has the same strength of patriotism. That's where Americans are wrong-wrong-wrong. Don't ever tell a Brit, Canadian, French, Australian, or Kiwi that your patriotism is stronger than theirs, or you might be pounded into the ground. Then there is inability to misjudge the patriotism of other countries. Every front yard in Denmark flies the Danish flag. Love of homeland is huge in Italy, a nation of people who essentially refuse to live elsewhere.
This whole "patriot" thing in our current culture drives me nuts. I have considered myself as patriotic because I have 43 years of combined military (21) and government (22) service. But now I want out. It's true that there is no comparing the US to other countries, because we come up way short in terms of... Well, in terms of just about everything. I'm looking at life as an ex-pat, a life in another country that is superior to ours in terms of quality. Portugal, Spain, Italy... There are several to choose from.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Healthy group - by the people (not by the pope, by the prophet, by the king, by the dictator). Flexible, listens deeply with intent to learn and change, not stiffnecked in any belief - not stuck to any ideology - open to new views and opinions, has track record of changing - "I was wrong" (ex-mo's have demonstrated this, the ability to say "I was wrong" - quite impressive. This is why I love the ex-mo crowd - they have demonstrated, in at least one huge area - the ability to re-think, listen, and change - which is great!!

Unhealthy group - codependent, relies on outside authority figure to tell them what to do, not self-reliant but leader-reliant, messiah complex - others will save you (rather than taking care of yourself), worth comes from approval from others. Doormat vs. unquestioned leader.

In short "This is the truth" mentality can be controlling/suffocating/destroys community - especially when that "truth" isn't true.

"This could be a *good* solution" - much better mindset, look for what is good, open to ideas that might be better, recognize it is all just good - not perfect - able to let go (let go or be dragged as the saying goes).

Out of the frying pan, into the fire? Sometimes people go from one unhealthy relationship to another. Let's hope that is not the pattern. It takes a real mind shift to embrace a new definition for our relationships - not head of household, not "authority", not who has the priesthood - but seeing everyone as people, feeling ok with making your own decisions that do not have to be approved by another, also not controlling another - mutual respect, some independence for everyone in there, self-reliance for everyone (not being prideful, just trying to be responsible self-reliant to the best of all our imperfect abilities).