NOM for Thee, NOM for He, or NOM for me?

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
Mayan_Elephant
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NOM for Thee, NOM for He, or NOM for me?

Post by Mayan_Elephant » Thu Aug 10, 2023 1:07 pm

This concept of NOM has evolved and changed a bit over time. Starting with LDSMan and going through many iterations of moderators and groups here on this forum, there have been changes.

I am out. I am so damn far out. I am out literally, technically and metaphorically. But, I have a lot of people in my life that could not be more in when it comes to the LDS Church. I have siblings, kids, parents and grandkids and friends and others that are all the way in. We are still family, we are still friends. Do I dislike them? No. Do I dislove them? No. I love them.

This idea of being like the LDSMan vision of someone who is checked out mentally, read Grant Palmer and Signature Books stuff, knew about Helen Mar Kimball before the essays, but still shows up on Sunday is not really the norm now. It is much easier to walk away today. So what is NOM now?

Well, for one, it is not a stereotyping and bashing and hating club where we get to talk about members of the church like they are all right wing cult-loving POS's who are unfit to be around healthy people that care about the environment, like us. Our own terms for Mormonism, (see the headline above) should allow for other people to also have their terms for Mormonism. And, in my opinion, those terms include being out of the church and not think every person in the church is a murdering MAGA idiot. My mom is as faithful and believing as a person gets. Some of the things that are said about her indirectly would not be received well if they were said directly to her or about her to her sons and daughters. I promise you that. My mom did not vote for Biden. Some of the things that she does on her terms as a Mormon are not what I do as someone who is no longer a member of that institution. However, I love my mom and it makes my skin crawl when I see stereotypes made about her for being an active woman in the LDS church.

I think living Mormonism on our terms only works if we let others live Mormonism on their terms. That is not as binary as being in or being out. It also includes co-existing with people who are in and people who are out. Seems obvious with spouses and kids, but it goes beyond that.
“Not ripe in spring, no standing by summer, Laches by fall, and moot by winter.”

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Angel
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Re: NOM for Thee, NOM for He, or NOM for me?

Post by Angel » Fri Aug 11, 2023 5:18 am

Not a hating club, most of us are embarrassed to admit we were sucked in too at some point - good to admit it though, laugh at ourselves, smile and move on.

Interventions are held by friends and family. First step is realizing how harmful it is, so a few frank words are needed. For friends/family, reinforce/compliment their non-church character - you are an amazing cook! So organized, hard worker, neat to see how in tune with nature you are - remind them and pull them to the outside world, to life outside of the cult.

I pulled my immediate family out. Love combined with some harsh direct frank conversations. Truth hurts sometimes. The key is forming something new, connecting with the outside world I think.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

Izhmash
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Re: NOM for Thee, NOM for He, or NOM for me?

Post by Izhmash » Fri Aug 11, 2023 6:52 am

Nice. You are proving the point that I have complained about. Why does NOM have to be about politics? You complain about the church being non-inclusive and yet you rail against people whose political views are even remotely right of center. I am conservative. And yet I have a lesbian daighter whom I love very much. I am retired Army and spent almost 30 years doing what I loved for a country that I love. So because I have conservative views I am not welcomed among the exmo community? F*** you.

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Re: NOM for Thee, NOM for He, or NOM for me?

Post by Dirty Bird » Fri Aug 11, 2023 8:15 am

Angel wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2023 5:18 am
Not a hating club, most of us are embarrassed to admit we were sucked in too at some point - good to admit it though, laugh at ourselves, smile and move on.

Interventions are held by friends and family. First step is realizing how harmful it is, so a few frank words are needed. For friends/family, reinforce/compliment their non-church character - you are an amazing cook! So organized, hard worker, neat to see how in tune with nature you are - remind them and pull them to the outside world, to life outside of the cult.

I pulled my immediate family out. Love combined with some harsh direct frank conversations. Truth hurts sometimes. The key is forming something new, connecting with the outside world I think.
What exactly is a cult? Are religious adherents the only people who join cults? People who left a religion and found their life purpose in a political ideology or possibly a group that believes in a specific type of therapy or perhaps an academic group of people who rely on coercive dynamics or perhaps a self-help or personal development group that has taken things just a little bit too far could make up a cult.

If a Mormon who has never smoked a cigarette, done illegal drugs, or consumed alcohol leaves the so-called cult you are referring to, then starts drinking alcohol and maybe dabbling with illegal drugs, and it causes him or her to have a more complicated life, did they have more freedom while they were a member of Mormonism or after they left it? You have to realize that everyone has a unique perspective on life, and just as not everyone who adheres to a religious dogma is imprisoned mentally, not everyone who does not adhere to a religious dogma is free. There are some people I know who are Mormon and they swear that their religion helps them organize their lives, which in turn gives them more time to spend with their families. I know atheist who are always in perpetual disarray and have never found out how to manage their day-to-day existence because they have never built a path, much like the one mormonism offers, to lead them along the way. They report having a restricted sense of freedom, in contrast to my friends who are Mormon. When it comes to being a member of or not being a member of the Mormon faith, there is nothing as black or white as the way you appear to be describing it.

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Re: NOM for Thee, NOM for He, or NOM for me?

Post by Dirty Bird » Fri Aug 11, 2023 8:18 am

Izhmash wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2023 6:52 am
Nice. You are proving the point that I have complained about. Why does NOM have to be about politics? You complain about the church being non-inclusive and yet you rail against people whose political views are even remotely right of center. I am conservative. And yet I have a lesbian daighter whom I love very much. I am retired Army and spent almost 30 years doing what I loved for a country that I love. So because I have conservative views I am not welcomed among the exmo community? F*** you.
Thanks for your service!

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Red Ryder
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Re: NOM for Thee, NOM for He, or NOM for me?

Post by Red Ryder » Fri Aug 11, 2023 8:25 am

Help me out here Izhmash.

I’m reading Elephants post and he’s pointing out that we should not hate on anyone that chooses Mormonism, conservatism, or veganism, or transhumanism, or hell even the Mediterranean diet. :lol: He points out that his skin crawls when his mother is compared to stereotypes.

Generally speaking, the expo community has a lot of loud voices complaining about political candidates and crazy old white men. I view it like a snake shedding its old skin. Distancing from all like minded people and tossing out the baby with the bath water. Conservative values as well. But most people when they leave the church are rutterless for a period of time until they find themselves. A new skin forms, and often what happens is the new skin looks like the old, but without the white shirt and temple recommend. And those voices are there, but aren’t the loudest anymore because the skin shedding process was so exhausting and painful. And we’ve found new hobbies and interests that remove us from the front lines of the protests. The exmo community is constantly a fireball of new anger and frustration. It’s a crappy place to stay in for too long.
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Red Ryder
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Re: NOM for Thee, NOM for He, or NOM for me?

Post by Red Ryder » Fri Aug 11, 2023 8:36 am

Great post dirty bird. I love the paradox you eloquently explain! And welcome to the board.

Where does Angel make a black or white comparison? She’s stating how she interacts with family/friends post exodus by focusing on non church interactions.
Dirty Bird wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2023 8:15 am
[When it comes to being a member of or not being a member of the Mormon faith, there is nothing as black or white as the way you appear to be describing it.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

Mayan_Elephant
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Re: NOM for Thee, NOM for He, or NOM for me?

Post by Mayan_Elephant » Fri Aug 11, 2023 8:59 am

Izhmash wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2023 6:52 am
Nice. You are proving the point that I have complained about. Why does NOM have to be about politics? You complain about the church being non-inclusive and yet you rail against people whose political views are even remotely right of center. I am conservative. And yet I have a lesbian daighter whom I love very much. I am retired Army and spent almost 30 years doing what I loved for a country that I love. So because I have conservative views I am not welcomed among the exmo community? F*** you.
It does not "have to be" about politics. I am with you and agree that it often is about politics and I am with you and I agree that politics is a litmus test among most, if not all, exmo communities. To me, that is unfortunate and not necessary. If there is a community that does not have this litmus test, I want to see it.

My point, even if not eloquently expressed, is that if we have tolerances to let people live Mormonism as they see fit, why in the hell can't we let them live Mormonism as they see fit without bashing the ELF out them for a political position, activity, haircut style or being a fan of the New York Yankees?
“Not ripe in spring, no standing by summer, Laches by fall, and moot by winter.”

Mayan_Elephant
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Re: NOM for Thee, NOM for He, or NOM for me?

Post by Mayan_Elephant » Fri Aug 11, 2023 9:12 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2023 8:25 am
Help me out here Izhmash.

I’m reading Elephants post and he’s pointing out that we should not hate on anyone that chooses Mormonism, conservatism, or veganism, or transhumanism, or hell even the Mediterranean diet. :lol: He points out that his skin crawls when his mother is compared to stereotypes.

Generally speaking, the expo community has a lot of loud voices complaining about political candidates and crazy old white men. I view it like a snake shedding its old skin. Distancing from all like minded people and tossing out the baby with the bath water. Conservative values as well. But most people when they leave the church are rutterless for a period of time until they find themselves. A new skin forms, and often what happens is the new skin looks like the old, but without the white shirt and temple recommend. And those voices are there, but aren’t the loudest anymore because the skin shedding process was so exhausting and painful. And we’ve found new hobbies and interests that remove us from the front lines of the protests. The exmo community is constantly a fireball of new anger and frustration. It’s a crappy place to stay in for too long.
There is a lot to unpack in this, Wise Ryder. A lot. A hell of ton lot.

I want to address this, though there are other parts of your post that are equally or more interesting topics.
most people when they leave the church are rutterless for a period of time until they find themselves.
I think there are many people left rutterless. I do not think it is most. I also think that the people who stay in the church have periods of being unmoored or rutterless. If we try and address the topic and the issue, without a metaphor, it becomes less in/out or good/bad. Or, put it this way. A Ferrari does not have a rutter, it is rutterless, and I would love to have one of those. As many know, I am more of a Lamborghini guy, but I would love to have a Ferrari without a rutter.

Anyways. I look forward to talking about your post more. I just think, well, some people struggle and stay, some struggle and leave, some do very well inside those lines and community, some do well on the other side. And, some suck no matter where they are and leaving or staying will not change the suck.
“Not ripe in spring, no standing by summer, Laches by fall, and moot by winter.”

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Red Ryder
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Re: NOM for Thee, NOM for He, or NOM for me?

Post by Red Ryder » Fri Aug 11, 2023 10:44 am

Mayan_Elephant wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2023 9:12 am

I just think, well, some people struggle and stay, some struggle and leave, some do very well inside those lines and community, some do well on the other side. And, some suck no matter where they are and leaving or staying will not change the suck.
This

It’s a weird phenomena. Just in my circle of family and friends, there are those that are constantly winning at life and those that aren’t.

PS. I got to drive a Lambo in Vegas last year at the track. Car was fast! But so uncomfortable to sit in.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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Re: NOM for Thee, NOM for He, or NOM for me?

Post by Mayan_Elephant » Fri Aug 11, 2023 12:13 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2023 10:44 am
Mayan_Elephant wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2023 9:12 am

I just think, well, some people struggle and stay, some struggle and leave, some do very well inside those lines and community, some do well on the other side. And, some suck no matter where they are and leaving or staying will not change the suck.
This

It’s a weird phenomena. Just in my circle of family and friends, there are those that are constantly winning at life and those that aren’t.

PS. I got to drive a Lambo in Vegas last year at the track. Car was fast! But so uncomfortable to sit in.
I have three vintage Lamborghinis and restored a fourth for a friend. I have never driven a Lamborghini car. Figure that one out. ;)
“Not ripe in spring, no standing by summer, Laches by fall, and moot by winter.”

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Re: NOM for Thee, NOM for He, or NOM for me?

Post by wtfluff » Fri Aug 11, 2023 12:51 pm

Mayan_Elephant wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2023 12:13 pm
I have three vintage Lamborghinis and restored a fourth for a friend. I have never driven a Lamborghini car. Figure that one out. ;)
A FARMER elephant?

Who-Da-Thunk?



[And now... Back to the normally scheduled vagueness...]
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Mayan_Elephant
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Re: NOM for Thee, NOM for He, or NOM for me?

Post by Mayan_Elephant » Fri Aug 11, 2023 1:11 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2023 12:51 pm
Mayan_Elephant wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2023 12:13 pm
I have three vintage Lamborghinis and restored a fourth for a friend. I have never driven a Lamborghini car. Figure that one out. ;)
A FARMER elephant?

Who-Da-Thunk?



[And now... Back to the normally scheduled vagueness...]
You got it. All mine are crawlers. I have 2, 3 and 4 cylinder tractors. Two were made before Lamborghini sold the tractor business to SAME.

This is not me or my tractor. But, this is a good pic of one of the models I have.

Image
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alas
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Re: NOM for Thee, NOM for He, or NOM for me?

Post by alas » Fri Aug 11, 2023 6:18 pm

I have probably been guilty of saying bad things about Trump supporters here on NOM. But, it is one of the only places where I can blow off stream, not about church but about what is going on in the country. I live in an area where some people have replaced trump flags several times because they wear out. They are perfectly happy to have a tattered American flag right next to their four or five Trump and f*** Biden flags, but that Trump flag has to be pretty and they have been flying them since 2015. Constantly without ever taking them down between elections.

Well, I have to be polite and friendly to my neighbors. Just like people still feel a lot of need to be polite and friendly to their church neighbors. So, I have blown off steam on line, because for awhile we just didn’t have conservatives on NOM to be offended.

Now that we do, I will try harder to be polite and friendly, because honest, I don’t hate you, I would like you if we met. I have all kinds of Trump supporting friends because that is who we meet when we are out and about. So, I just avoid politics and talk other stuff. Most of them are anti pollution, even if they insist climate change is a hoax. So, I tie our fouled up weather into pollution because actually carbon is a pollutant and is released by smoke spewing cars and all kinds of polluting factories. And they agree with me. Because I don’t use the words that Fox News uses as evil. They don’t usually know enough about the science behind climate change, and when I explain things without using trigger words, they agree. They are not stupid, as Mayan elephant will tell you, (if he is a farmer and not a collector of antique tractors) you can’t run a farm and and be stupid. But Fox News doesn’t take the time to explain things, it just talks trash about Democrats.

So, welcome to NOM to our new conservatives.

Deleted portion
Last edited by alas on Sat Aug 12, 2023 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: NOM for Thee, NOM for He, or NOM for me?

Post by Mayan_Elephant » Fri Aug 11, 2023 8:28 pm

alas wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2023 6:18 pm
I have probably been guilty of saying bad things about Trump supporters here on NOM. But, it is one of the only places where I can blow off stream, not about church but about what is going on in the country. I live in an area where some people have replaced trump flags several times because they wear out. They are perfectly happy to have a tattered American flag right next to their four or five Trump and f*** Biden flags, but that Trump flag has to be pretty and they have been flying them since 2015. Constantly without ever taking them down between elections.

Well, I have to be polite and friendly to my neighbors. Just like people still feel a lot of need to be polite and friendly to their church neighbors. So, I have blown off steam on line, because for awhile we just didn’t have conservatives on NOM to be offended.

Now that we do, I will try harder to be polite and friendly, because honest, I don’t hate you, I would like you if we met. I have all kinds of Trump supporting friends because that is who we meet when we are out and about. So, I just avoid politics and talk other stuff. Most of them are anti pollution, even if they insist climate change is a hoax. So, I tie our fouled up weather into pollution because actually carbon is a pollutant and is released by smoke spewing cars and all kinds of polluting factories. And they agree with me. Because I don’t use the words that Fox News uses as evil. They don’t usually know enough about the science behind climate change, and when I explain things without using trigger words, they agree. They are not stupid, as Mayan elephant will tell you, (if he is a farmer and not a collector of antique tractors) you can’t run a farm and and be stupid. But Fox News doesn’t take the time to explain things, it just talks trash about Democrats.

So, welcome to NOM to our new conservatives.

[matched deletion]
Thanks, alas. I can work with that.

For the record, I confirmed that all my Lamborghinis are indeed tractors. I restored them all to be used on a ranch, which they all have done. I would not call myself a farmer. My family has many dairy farmers and ranchers, I am not that good. Not even close.

Also and more for the record. My issue in the forums and conversations lies more in how those we disagree with are stereotyped and less in the actual disagreement. Also also, you may be very surprised how much we agree.
Last edited by Mayan_Elephant on Sat Aug 12, 2023 7:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: NOM for Thee, NOM for He, or NOM for me?

Post by 2bizE » Fri Aug 11, 2023 8:43 pm

I think NOM represents the values of love, mutual respect, kindness, understanding and forgiveness… unlike some other social media sites. Most of us have transitioned through or are in the process of transitioning through Mormonism, but it is hard to fully leave the tribe that we have been apart of for decades. It feels more like the crowd that hangs out in the church lobby, who cares more about friendships than gospel principles.
~2bizE

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Re: NOM for Thee, NOM for He, or NOM for me?

Post by Mayan_Elephant » Fri Aug 11, 2023 8:49 pm

2bizE wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2023 8:43 pm
I think NOM represents the values of love, mutual respect, kindness, understanding and forgiveness… unlike some other social media sites. Most of us have transitioned through or are in the process of transitioning through Mormonism, but it is hard to fully leave the tribe that we have been apart of for decades. It feels more like the crowd that hangs out in the church lobby, who cares more about friendships than gospel principles.
Making friends here is life changing. I promise.
“Not ripe in spring, no standing by summer, Laches by fall, and moot by winter.”

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alas
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Re: NOM for Thee, NOM for He, or NOM for me?

Post by alas » Sat Aug 12, 2023 2:18 am

Mayan, ranching is probably closer to home for me anyway. I lived on a ranch that belonged to my grandmother when I was little. And my dad continued to raise cattle on some land also owned by my grandmother for years after that. My brothers and brother in law all worked at the ranch every summer. So, yeah, I have driven a tractor that was probably already an antique 60 years ago. I have bucked bails, or rather stagger under bails too big for me to throw onto the trailer. And where I live now is ranching country, at least up the road past the lake is. Although the primary income is from tourists right here.

And, yes, I know we agree on a lot…especially the part about you being an intelligent guy, right? ;)

Anyway, I came on to delete that honest part, because the people I wish believed that, never will. And they are long gone anyway.

NOM needed to change and might need to change now because more people are leaving and that makes it easier to leave the church. Maybe we should just call ourselves “Friends of Mormons” or better “Friends and Family of Mormons” and stop pretending that we are still in. We are pretty much physically out as well as mentally out. Members of Record Only. I like FFOM.

Politically I am just sad really because I used to really believe much of what republicans stood for. Or said they did, anyway. My first political argument, I wanted the R presidential candidate and my mother wanted D. My mother first said that he was unfit because he was disabled, then when that didn’t convince me, argued the guy was racist, but my mother’s reasons for being against him because he was disabled was equally prejudiced as what she was condemning the racist for. And looking at more than Viet Nam, yes the guy was racist, but then I only wanted us out of Nam.

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Re: NOM for Thee, NOM for He, or NOM for me?

Post by Mayan_Elephant » Sat Aug 12, 2023 6:11 am

alas wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2023 2:18 am
Mayan, ranching is probably closer to home for me anyway. I lived on a ranch that belonged to my grandmother when I was little. And my dad continued to raise cattle on some land also owned by my grandmother for years after that. My brothers and brother in law all worked at the ranch every summer. So, yeah, I have driven a tractor that was probably already an antique 60 years ago. I have bucked bails, or rather stagger under bails too big for me to throw onto the trailer. And where I live now is ranching country, at least up the road past the lake is. Although the primary income is from tourists right here.

And, yes, I know we agree on a lot…especially the part about you being an intelligent guy, right? ;)

Anyway, I came on to delete that honest part, because the people I wish believed that, never will. And they are long gone anyway.

NOM needed to change and might need to change now because more people are leaving and that makes it easier to leave the church. Maybe we should just call ourselves “Friends of Mormons” or better “Friends and Family of Mormons” and stop pretending that we are still in. We are pretty much physically out as well as mentally out. Members of Record Only. I like FFOM.

Politically I am just sad really because I used to really believe much of what republicans stood for. Or said they did, anyway. My first political argument, I wanted the R presidential candidate and my mother wanted D. My mother first said that he was unfit because he was disabled, then when that didn’t convince me, argued the guy was racist, but my mother’s reasons for being against him because he was disabled was equally prejudiced as what she was condemning the racist for. And looking at more than Viet Nam, yes the guy was racist, but then I only wanted us out of Nam.
I think if being friends and family of mormons was the standard, and not just the name, we would have a different collection of conversations. I like the name and I like the suggestion. We agree on that too!!!!

I am not a registered voter any more. I won't vote in a process that I do not trust or agree with, regardless of the outcome, regardless of the candidates. I grew up in a hard core democratic family. I have met democratic governors and senators that worked closely with my grandmother. I have voted for Ds and Rs in my life. Under these conditions, in 2023, I will not likely ever vote again. I will, however, rage against the process with hope that one day I could vote in my own country again.
“Not ripe in spring, no standing by summer, Laches by fall, and moot by winter.”

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Angel
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Re: NOM for Thee, NOM for He, or NOM for me?

Post by Angel » Sat Aug 12, 2023 7:10 am

Dirty Bird wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2023 8:15 am
Angel wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2023 5:18 am
Not a hating club, most of us are embarrassed to admit we were sucked in too at some point - good to admit it though, laugh at ourselves, smile and move on.

Interventions are held by friends and family. First step is realizing how harmful it is, so a few frank words are needed. For friends/family, reinforce/compliment their non-church character - you are an amazing cook! So organized, hard worker, neat to see how in tune with nature you are - remind them and pull them to the outside world, to life outside of the cult.

I pulled my immediate family out. Love combined with some harsh direct frank conversations. Truth hurts sometimes. The key is forming something new, connecting with the outside world I think.
What exactly is a cult? Are religious adherents the only people who join cults? People who left a religion and found their life purpose in a political ideology or possibly a group that believes in a specific type of therapy or perhaps an academic group of people who rely on coercive dynamics or perhaps a self-help or personal development group that has taken things just a little bit too far could make up a cult.

If a Mormon who has never smoked a cigarette, done illegal drugs, or consumed alcohol leaves the so-called cult you are referring to, then starts drinking alcohol and maybe dabbling with illegal drugs, and it causes him or her to have a more complicated life, did they have more freedom while they were a member of Mormonism or after they left it? You have to realize that everyone has a unique perspective on life, and just as not everyone who adheres to a religious dogma is imprisoned mentally, not everyone who does not adhere to a religious dogma is free. There are some people I know who are Mormon and they swear that their religion helps them organize their lives, which in turn gives them more time to spend with their families. I know atheist who are always in perpetual disarray and have never found out how to manage their day-to-day existence because they have never built a path, much like the one mormonism offers, to lead them along the way. They report having a restricted sense of freedom, in contrast to my friends who are Mormon. When it comes to being a member of or not being a member of the Mormon faith, there is nothing as black or white as the way you appear to be describing it.
Yes, everyone has a unique perspective and I am trying to be better at controlling my PTSD. You have to understand, my experience in Mormonism includes a high priest who is now in jail, without parole, for life. He was protected by the church, and I am now dealing with trying to untangle the kids he abused. I understand this is not everyone's experience - this stuff happens in all organizations, as good stuff happens within all organizations too. For me and my family, it is a cult, and they needed to be pulled out of the environment that abused them.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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