NOM

My son asked if he can attend church more.

I've posted before about the arrangement my DW and I have agreed on, attending church as a family half the time and staying home as a family half the time. I figured the kids would have an opinion at some point, and it looks like for my deacon-aged son that time is now.

He mentioned that his church friend had asked my son if he was coming to church Sunday, and that it would be good if he did. I took the opportunity to see what my sons feelings were about going to church and asked him if he wanted to attend more. He paused for a moment, then simply said "yes." We talked a bit about what he liked about it and then I told him that I'd talk with DW about it and see what we can do.

I feel for the kid because the church makes it difficult to be halfway in. I remember feeling a sense of pride for being there every week and knowing the answers, and for him he instead gets a sense of guilt for missing so much and not knowing the answers. We will work something out; maybe have one week we all go, one week we all stay home, and the rest of the time people can do what they want. He will have space to choose.

I'm proud of the kid for wanting to be good so bad, and worried that he could be confused about the truth of the church because the community works for him. It's pretty funny, who asks for more church ?

Wanting to be good...

New semester, students introding themselves, getting to know the new crowd. They want to be good at math, good at programming, good at - you name it - immersed in excercise, immersed in learning a new language, immersed in music, in cooking - dedicated to being good/talented ...


I think many groups twist what it is to be good.

Instead of mastering a skill which produces genuine self-worth, pride in ability to perform surgery, know people need you - therapist, fix the electrical equipment- whatever you are good at and good for... real goodness.

In groups, good = obey groupthink, not master a skill.

Meaning, Purpose, dedication - so important to find goodness in what is actually good. So much to learn, to master, to study - to then genuinely give back, real service if you really master something worthwhile.

What does your son really want here? It sounds like your son wants to go to church to see his friends and right now church is where they meet. Can you encourage him to meet his friends outside of church? An after school or a Saturday activity?

Could be worse.

Dad, I want:

1. More annoying little brothers and sisters to torture with endless pranks.
2. Extra school assignments to use as paper airplanes for aerial warfare.
3. A permanent bedtime extension, so they can stay up past the adults.
4. A secret passageway in the house for their "top-secret" operations.
5. An unlimited supply of whipped cream to "decorate" the entire house.
6. Daily permission to "fire" the vegetables out of a cannon at dinner.
7. A live band to follow them around playing dramatic entrance music.
8. A pet dragon for, you know, neighborhood landscaping.
9. An "anti-adult" remote control to pause, mute, or fast-forward grown-ups.
10. A time machine to go back and erase broccoli from existence.

(Thanks chatGPT… )

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 9:39 am Could be worse.

Dad, I want:

1. More annoying little brothers and sisters to torture with endless pranks.
2. Extra school assignments to use as paper airplanes for aerial warfare.
3. A permanent bedtime extension, so they can stay up past the adults.
4. A secret passageway in the house for their "top-secret" operations.
5. An unlimited supply of whipped cream to "decorate" the entire house.
6. Daily permission to "fire" the vegetables out of a cannon at dinner.
7. A live band to follow them around playing dramatic entrance music.
8. A pet dragon for, you know, neighborhood landscaping.
9. An "anti-adult" remote control to pause, mute, or fast-forward grown-ups.
10. A time machine to go back and erase broccoli from existence.

(Thanks chatGPT… )

2,4, 6, 7, 8, and 9 sound good to me. I like broccoli. And I like to sleep.

Angel wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 7:47 pm Wanting to be good...

New semester, students introding themselves, getting to know the new crowd. They want to be good at math, good at programming, good at - you name it - immersed in excercise, immersed in learning a new language, immersed in music, in cooking - dedicated to being good/talented ...


I think many groups twist what it is to be good.

Instead of mastering a skill which produces genuine self-worth, pride in ability to perform surgery, know people need you - therapist, fix the electrical equipment- whatever you are good at and good for... real goodness.

In groups, good = obey groupthink, not master a skill.

Meaning, Purpose, dedication - so important to find goodness in what is actually good. So much to learn, to master, to study - to then genuinely give back, real service if you really master something worthwhile.

Great points Angel. I completely agree, but I think I need to give him space to make some decisions. We talked about why he wants to go to church more and I cautioned him against doing it because he feels like he "should" in an effort to help him see the groupthink pressure. I'll be there for him as he tries to navigate it all and we will continue to have discussions about what it means to be good.

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 4:36 am What does your son really want here? It sounds like your son wants to go to church to see his friends and right now church is where they meet. Can you encourage him to meet his friends outside of church? An after school or a Saturday activity?

I asked him why he wants to go more and he didn't have much of an answer. I fed him some good reasons and he just agreed with them, so I also warned him against bad reasons.

In my experience he likes social situations where he has a role and clear expectations, and church gives him that. He and this friend share many interests and hang out all the time at both houses.

I think the best thing I can give him is an example of a good person who doesn't believe so he feels like it is a valid option for a good life.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Wed Sep 06, 2023 9:39 am Could be worse.

Dad, I want:

1. More annoying little brothers and sisters to torture with endless pranks.
2. Extra school assignments to use as paper airplanes for aerial warfare.
3. A permanent bedtime extension, so they can stay up past the adults.
4. A secret passageway in the house for their "top-secret" operations.
5. An unlimited supply of whipped cream to "decorate" the entire house.
6. Daily permission to "fire" the vegetables out of a cannon at dinner.
7. A live band to follow them around playing dramatic entrance music.
8. A pet dragon for, you know, neighborhood landscaping.
9. An "anti-adult" remote control to pause, mute, or fast-forward grown-ups.
10. A time machine to go back and erase broccoli from existence.

(Thanks chatGPT… )

Totally agree that it could be worse! I think it's hilarious how not-bad his secret desires are. But there's pain in scrupulousity too, so I'll try to help him avoid it, along with hookers and blow.

I'd take #9

Linked wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:07 am...
He mentioned that his church friend had asked my son if he was coming to church Sunday, and that it would be good if he did.
...

If you want to blow some minds, come up with a non-church activity on a Sunday, invite "church friend" and tell him "it would be good" if he attended with your son.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:18 pm

Linked wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:07 am...
He mentioned that his church friend had asked my son if he was coming to church Sunday, and that it would be good if he did.
...

If you want to blow some minds, come up with a non-church activity on a Sunday, invite "church friend" and tell him "it would be good" if he attended with your son.

A visit to the Church of the Great Blue Dome, could have it's benefits...

Linked wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 3:50 pm
Great points Angel. I completely agree, but I think I need to give him space to make some decisions. We talked about why he wants to go to church more and I cautioned him against doing it because he feels like he "should" in an effort to help him see the groupthink pressure. I'll be there for him as he tries to navigate it all and we will continue to have discussions about what it means to be good.

Our family watched the Waco Netflix documentary together - great discussion starter on groupthink. I had my oldest take debate / participate on the debate team that was a good experience for critical thinking. Foreign films, foreign travel - even just regular trips to the ethnic parts of town, unique grocery stores, Indian restaurants (the owner learns their patrons quickly - fun to get to know local shops). Diverse perspectives - in HS I learned Kung Fu at Shaolin Temple with really special people. Celebrate diverse holidays

Wish there was a podcast for mixed-faith parent/kids - is there? like mixed-faith marriage but for kids instead?

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:18 pm

Linked wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:07 am...
He mentioned that his church friend had asked my son if he was coming to church Sunday, and that it would be good if he did.
...

If you want to blow some minds, come up with a non-church activity on a Sunday, invite "church friend" and tell him "it would be good" if he attended with your son.

Oh, that's a great idea!

My first response to hearing that this friend was pressuring my son to go to church was frustration with the pressure from the church through every freaking relationship. I pressured my friends when I was a deacon too (sorry Dustin). But in this case there was a pretty good reason, my ward was changing the bishopric and this friends dad was being put in, so it was kind of an event. If they start putting pressure on all the time then maybe I'll start inviting the friend and his dad over for video games during church to make a point.

Linked wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 12:43 pm

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:18 pm

Linked wrote: ↑Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:07 am...
He mentioned that his church friend had asked my son if he was coming to church Sunday, and that it would be good if he did.
...

If you want to blow some minds, come up with a non-church activity on a Sunday, invite "church friend" and tell him "it would be good" if he attended with your son.

Oh, that's a great idea!

My first response to hearing that this friend was pressuring my son to go to church was frustration with the pressure from the church through every freaking relationship. I pressured my friends when I was a deacon too (sorry Dustin). But in this case there was a pretty good reason, my ward was changing the bishopric and this friends dad was being put in, so it was kind of an event. If they start putting pressure on all the time then maybe I'll start inviting the friend and his dad over for video games during church to make a point.

The good/bad that could come out of a of the possible Sunday game invite: You son may find out that his "church friend" friendship is more about church than it is about friendship.

When I was a kid some of the girls in my class started asking me to come back to church, saying they missed me and all. But when I went back, come to figure out, the teacher put them up to missionary work, to reactivate me. They did not care if I was there or not, but they wanted the brownie points from doing their missionary work. My first experience in how the church encourages people to use fake friendship to meet the church’s goals. Chances are that some leader has noticed you son’s spotty attendance and sent “friends” out to get his attendance up.

I don’t know if you would want to warn your child not to trust church friends, or just let him find out for himself if this is a real friend or not. I hate the idea of teaching children not to trust. They learn it too quickly in life most of the time anyway…..but then there is my oldest that I was careful not to teach her to distrust and she is finally learning at 50 that she can’t trust everyone who pretends to be her friend.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 3:56 pm

Linked wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 12:43 pm

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:18 pm
If you want to blow some minds, come up with a non-church activity on a Sunday, invite "church friend" and tell him "it would be good" if he attended with your son.

Oh, that's a great idea!

My first response to hearing that this friend was pressuring my son to go to church was frustration with the pressure from the church through every freaking relationship. I pressured my friends when I was a deacon too (sorry Dustin). But in this case there was a pretty good reason, my ward was changing the bishopric and this friends dad was being put in, so it was kind of an event. If they start putting pressure on all the time then maybe I'll start inviting the friend and his dad over for video games during church to make a point.

The good/bad that could come out of a of the possible Sunday game invite: You son may find out that his "church friend" friendship is more about church than it is about friendship.

Good point, maybe we won't test that one.

alas wrote: ↑Sat Sep 09, 2023 3:45 pm When I was a kid some of the girls in my class started asking me to come back to church, saying they missed me and all. But when I went back, come to figure out, the teacher put them up to missionary work, to reactivate me. They did not care if I was there or not, but they wanted the brownie points from doing their missionary work. My first experience in how the church encourages people to use fake friendship to meet the church’s goals. Chances are that some leader has noticed you son’s spotty attendance and sent “friends” out to get his attendance up.

I don’t know if you would want to warn your child not to trust church friends, or just let him find out for himself if this is a real friend or not. I hate the idea of teaching children not to trust. They learn it too quickly in life most of the time anyway…..but then there is my oldest that I was careful not to teach her to distrust and she is finally learning at 50 that she can’t trust everyone who pretends to be her friend.

That's so brutal. Why does the church culture encourage people to get tease others with friendship up only to reject them?? Because they don't actually care about that person, rather they care about how they feel they look to their in-group and their God.

I hope my son doesn't have to go through that pain, but if he does we will make the best of it and go get ice cream or something. Like you say, it's a really tough thing as a parent, because you don't want to teach not to trust or that these people are bad. So far the friendship between my son and this kid seems real, they spend far more time together outside of church doing non-church activities that they have a shared interest in. But that can always change.