How do you define Mormonism?

[Mayan_Elephant]

The church can be a big mess. And there can still be good helpful people within that church.

[Angel]

Brainwashing is real. Cognitive dissonance is real. It's impossible to communicate with the brainwashed.

"The spirit" isn't from "God". God isn't real.

Empty boats. All of it, empty.

[moksha]

Sometimes these kinds of things remind me of Stanley Milgram's famous obedience study at Harvard...

If I were a bishop, would I defy the church legal counsel not to report, risk being sued by the perpetrator, and make a call that possibly saves a child?

What would Jesus do?

This would be a fun update to Stanley Milgram's famous obedience study if conducted at BYU. Save the child by reporting while risking ex-communication and electric shocks or not report and gain Church promotions, celestial wives, and eventually your own planet to be a God.

So, what do you think Jesus would do?

[Cnsl1]

Angel, you said members won't go outside the box to help a child?

I did.

When I was still a TBM I observed a man physically abusing a child alone in a classroom during sacrament mtg. I got in his face and told him to stop immediately. I told him he knew that was wrong. He didn't argue. I called CPS. I didn't tell the bishop. The mother later begged me not to call.. it's already done. That's physical abuse. I saw it with my own eyes. She knew it, too. The child didn't get pulled from the home and maybe that was the right thing, I don't know, that wasn't my job to make that decision. But as far as I know, it didn't happen anymore. The man was contrite and self depricatory. It completely changed my relationship with him. We no longer spoke. But hey. Don't f#$@ing beat up your kid, jackass. It went way beyond anything that could be considered normal discipline.

I sometimes wonder if I should have also told the bishop. Honestly, it never occurred to me at the time. For me, this wasn't a church thing, it just happened at church.

[Cnsl1]

Years later, the man is completely out of the picture and the kid seems to be doing ok.

[alas]

I have also seen TBM member do things that helped. One friend knew a woman was in an abusive marriage. The elder’s quorum told the men not to help her move out f the house as she was going against the bishop’s advice to stay with her temple marriage. He was the only man who showed up to help her get her stuff in the time the police could be there to keep the abuser away. But, put two women on one side of a “this was my mother’s, and I’m not leaving it” furniture, and we got everything important to her out of the house.

Another bishop started a program for abused or traumatized women to help them fix their relationship with God.

My own stake president helped me get that program going in my stake. Then his replacement wasn’t willing to keep it going because he couldn’t even see outside of the box.

This is one that I knew about because of my job, not through church channels. When we lived overseas with the Air Force, an army dependent kid was neglected to the point he fell three stories in an unsupervised situation. The neighbors had been complaining about the neglect in this family for months, but there was no child protective services for US military families, only his commanding officer. Who can court marshal the guy, but not do a thing if the wife is guilty of neglect. The Commanding officer ordered the man stateside, which of course takes the family back to the states. But the CO failed to tell his new commander that there was serious neglect in the family. The CO just acted like he wanted the problem out of his command, so transfer them, let them be someone else’s problem. He didn’t notify CPS in the new area. He didn’t notify the new CO, nothing. The family would have fallen through the cracks. As bad as the church not reporting. The hospital guy reporting to the child abuse counsel that I was on, was upset with CO, but what can a tech sarge do against a general? So, the Mormon bishop called their new bishop, then made sure that the local authorities knew that the family was moving in, and that a record was filed with the local CPS to follow up. Of course, the person reporting the outcome of this case got the Mormon language all wrong. But he was frustrated by the lack of oversight by the CO.

Mormons can do the right thing. But the rules of the church almost act against people in the church doing the right thing. If Cnsl1 had just reported what he saw to the bishop, it very well could have ended up with nothing done.

[Angel]

Angel, you said members won't go outside the box to help a child?

I did.

When I was still a TBM I observed a man physically abusing a child alone in a classroom during sacrament mtg. I got in his face and told him to stop immediately. I told him he knew that was wrong. He didn't argue. I called CPS. I didn't tell the bishop. The mother later begged me not to call.. it's already done. That's physical abuse. I saw it with my own eyes. She knew it, too. The child didn't get pulled from the home and maybe that was the right thing, I don't know, that wasn't my job to make that decision. But as far as I know, it didn't happen anymore. The man was contrite and self depricatory. It completely changed my relationship with him. We no longer spoke. But hey. Don't f#$@ing beat up your kid, jackass. It went way beyond anything that could be considered normal discipline.

I sometimes wonder if I should have also told the bishop. Honestly, it never occurred to me at the time. For me, this wasn't a church thing, it just happened at church.

Awesome to hear Cns. Wish more were like you.

https://apnews.com/article/mormon-clerg ... 59bd3742f3

[Angel]

I have also seen TBM member do things that helped. One friend knew a woman was in an abusive marriage. The elder’s quorum told the men not to help her move out f the house as she was going against the bishop’s advice to stay with her temple marriage. He was the only man who showed up to help her get her stuff in the time the police could be there to keep the abuser away. But, put two women on one side of a “this was my mother’s, and I’m not leaving it” furniture, and we got everything important to her out of the house.

Another bishop started a program for abused or traumatized women to help them fix their relationship with God.

My own stake president helped me get that program going in my stake. Then his replacement wasn’t willing to keep it going because he couldn’t even see outside of the box.

This is one that I knew about because of my job, not through church channels. When we lived overseas with the Air Force, an army dependent kid was neglected to the point he fell three stories in an unsupervised situation. The neighbors had been complaining about the neglect in this family for months, but there was no child protective services for US military families, only his commanding officer. Who can court marshal the guy, but not do a thing if the wife is guilty of neglect. The Commanding officer ordered the man stateside, which of course takes the family back to the states. But the CO failed to tell his new commander that there was serious neglect in the family. The CO just acted like he wanted the problem out of his command, so transfer them, let them be someone else’s problem. He didn’t notify CPS in the new area. He didn’t notify the new CO, nothing. The family would have fallen through the cracks. As bad as the church not reporting. The hospital guy reporting to the child abuse counsel that I was on, was upset with CO, but what can a tech sarge do against a general? So, the Mormon bishop called their new bishop, then made sure that the local authorities knew that the family was moving in, and that a record was filed with the local CPS to follow up. Of course, the person reporting the outcome of this case got the Mormon language all wrong. But he was frustrated by the lack of oversight by the CO.

Mormons can do the right thing. But the rules of the church almost act against people in the church doing the right thing. If Cnsl1 had just reported what he saw to the bishop, it very well could have ended up with nothing done.

I requested a support group in my area for victims, and was told no, not enough interest, no one would come.

I'm not a member anymore, but remember looking up the number of "addiction support groups", and comparing it to the number of groups supporting friends/family of addicts.

There were plenty of support groups for him.
None for me.
None for kids.

At church, you could see who was in the good-old-boys support group. They would hug one another in the foyier - then glare at me, avoid looking at kids.

It was good they offered no help - now I know it would have been more brainwashing, protecting the church. Lack of support in the church pushed me to where I could get genuine secular help for at least my kids.

[alas]

I have also seen TBM member do things that helped. One friend knew a woman was in an abusive marriage. The elder’s quorum told the men not to help her move out f the house as she was going against the bishop’s advice to stay with her temple marriage. He was the only man who showed up to help her get her stuff in the time the police could be there to keep the abuser away. But, put two women on one side of a “this was my mother’s, and I’m not leaving it” furniture, and we got everything important to her out of the house.

Another bishop started a program for abused or traumatized women to help them fix their relationship with God.

My own stake president helped me get that program going in my stake. Then his replacement wasn’t willing to keep it going because he couldn’t even see outside of the box.

This is one that I knew about because of my job, not through church channels. When we lived overseas with the Air Force, an army dependent kid was neglected to the point he fell three stories in an unsupervised situation. The neighbors had been complaining about the neglect in this family for months, but there was no child protective services for US military families, only his commanding officer. Who can court marshal the guy, but not do a thing if the wife is guilty of neglect. The Commanding officer ordered the man stateside, which of course takes the family back to the states. But the CO failed to tell his new commander that there was serious neglect in the family. The CO just acted like he wanted the problem out of his command, so transfer them, let them be someone else’s problem. He didn’t notify CPS in the new area. He didn’t notify the new CO, nothing. The family would have fallen through the cracks. As bad as the church not reporting. The hospital guy reporting to the child abuse counsel that I was on, was upset with CO, but what can a tech sarge do against a general? So, the Mormon bishop called their new bishop, then made sure that the local authorities knew that the family was moving in, and that a record was filed with the local CPS to follow up. Of course, the person reporting the outcome of this case got the Mormon language all wrong. But he was frustrated by the lack of oversight by the CO.

Mormons can do the right thing. But the rules of the church almost act against people in the church doing the right thing. If Cnsl1 had just reported what he saw to the bishop, it very well could have ended up with nothing done.

I requested a support group in my area for victims, and was told no, not enough interest, no one would come.

I'm not a member anymore, but remember looking up the number of "addiction support groups", and comparing it to the number of groups supporting friends/family of addicts.

There were plenty of support groups for him.
None for me.
None for kids.

At church, you could see who was in the good-old-boys support group. They would hug one another in the foyier - then glare at me, avoid looking at kids.

It was good they offered no help - now I know it would have been more brainwashing, protecting the church. Lack of support in the church pushed me to where I could get genuine secular help for at least my kids.

Like I said, even after we got a support group started, it didn’t last because the bishops would think they could handle it, or the person didn’t really need a group and not tell her about it, then the new stake president wasn’t willing to do anything not mandated by Salt Lake.

So, I left the church. They showed me just how little they value women and how little they care about the damage done by abuse. But they give the abuser all the support he could want.

I am not going to stay in any organization that values a child molestor more than they value the molested child.

But, yes, there are a few good INDIVIDUALS in the church. The church as an organization is a good ol molestor’s club.

[Mayan_Elephant]

The system is broken. We seem to have a consensus.

[Angel]

I just had someone from old ward reach out to me for help - I connected them with support services in area. (my school serves low income/ immigrants etc so I'm in the loop of where to go for what).

There are amazing groups out there.

The church isn't one of them.

[hmb]

I don't know if a church support group would really be that positive. Their answer for every problem is more prayer and scripture study. It becomes more guilt, heaped on the person seeking help, because they aren't praying hard enough. The support should be at the pulpit, preaching the need for love, understanding, and acceptance for individuals that don't fit the mold. THAT will never happen.

[Mayan_Elephant]

Holy holy holy what the holy? Here is a guy here who copied that Joseph Smith fella. How does a dude who looks like this end up with a sex cult? Can someone essplain?



https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/25775786/ ... sex-naked/

[alas]

I don't know if a church support group would really be that positive. Their answer for every problem is more prayer and scripture study. It becomes more guilt, heaped on the person seeking help, because they aren't praying hard enough. The support should be at the pulpit, preaching the need for love, understanding, and acceptance for individuals that don't fit the mold. THAT will never happen.

The one I knew about did, because the guy who started it did it because his wife had been raped and that triggered her childhood trauma. Then regular church wasn’t answering her questions and her secular therapy was not answering her spiritual issues from childhood sexual abuse. And some of the women in her secular support group had been there for YEARS and were not progressing. So, he set it up for what survivors need, not what the church wanted them to need. So, telling them to forgive, without any thought about how they healed, or demanding reconciliation even when that meant more abuse, those kinds of repeat the abuse to maintain the patriarchy were not part of his program. He even told me some very angry thoughts about certain of the 15 who treated child sexual abuse as no big deal. When the church tried to correlate the good stuff out of it, and charge money for victims when the offenders had a free group, he said no and continued to do it his way. But then he stared as a bishop and then stake president and he is a charismatic guy, who knows when to ignore his higher ups. But eventually it failed for lack of higher up support and he got his counseling degree and made a job out of counseling victims because he didn’t agree with LDSFS and how they pressured the survivor to reconcile. But his support group was still free last I heard.

So, hmmm, once again, we are back to individuals who buck the system can support victims but the system itself is harmful. Why am I not surprised.

[Charlotte]

Thank you!