The new throat-slitting

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Hagoth
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The new throat-slitting

Post by Hagoth » Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:33 am

When they took the penalties out of the endowment ceremony they also removed the most graphic reminder that if you stray from the program you are putting yourself in very real danger. It seems to me that that void has been filled by the growing popularity of "the covenant path." When they talk about the covenant path it is in the form of a veiled threat. Hey, you made a promise to us that you would remain unquestioningly faithful and committed. If you step off that path there will be consequences, not just for you, but for your family for generations to come. They tell you that you made those promises to Godalmighty, but if you really pay attention you realize that you made them to the church. True, you swear before God and Angels, but it is to Russell M. Nelson and Co. that you really pledge your life and allegiance.

Am I wrong about this?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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alas
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Re: The new throat-slitting

Post by alas » Tue Apr 09, 2024 10:14 am

You promise to give everything to the church of JC of LDS, but if it isn’t his church, then you are off the hook. Or, if there are no saints in said church, you are equally off the hook. Or even if it isn’t really the latter days. I figure three loop holes is good enough.

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wtfluff
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Re: The new throat-slitting

Post by wtfluff » Tue Apr 09, 2024 11:50 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:33 am
...
They tell you that you made those promises to Godalmighty, but if you really pay attention you realize that you made them to the church. True, you swear before God and Angels, but it is to Russell M. Nelson and Co. that you really pledge your life and allegiance.

Am I wrong about this?
Well... Legally, all of us old folks promised to give everything to a Trademark™.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints did not exist as a legal entity until 2019 when R. Marion shook up the legal names, entities and trademarks.

Plagiarized by Fluffy from Reddit:
Title: Legal Status of Incorporation and the Legal Name of the LDS Church

...
The Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was incorporated in Utah on July 13, 1916. (Source)

The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was incorporated in Utah on November 26, 1923. (Source)

The Edmunds-Tucker Act was repealed on November 2, 1978 (Source) making the need for the various and obtusely named corporations moot. Because with this repeal, the LDS Church could now legally reincorporate as a distinct entity.

The Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was renamed The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on June 18, 2019. ...

If you search the Utah State database for public information on Corporations you will find that The Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was incorporated again, with the same LDS Church address on July 8, 2019. It is unclear what responsibilities this new corporation retained from the previous one.

Also, this database lists the status of The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as expired on December 31, 2020 and merged--although it doesn't say with which corporation. I assume that the previously cited Salt Lake Tribune article is correct in declaring that it was merged with the newly renamed corporation of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Another fun fact is that a DBA (Doing Business As) filing was first completed for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on October 19, 2018. Which was 11 days after Russell Nelson reaffirmed "the correct name" of the LDS Church. A DBA filing does not create an official corporation, but it is a legal declaration that the name will be a name your organization will be "doing business as."
...
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

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wtfluff
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Re: The new throat-slitting

Post by wtfluff » Tue Apr 09, 2024 11:54 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:33 am
...
They tell you that you made those promises to Godalmighty, but if you really pay attention you realize that you made them to the church. True, you swear before God and Angels, but it is to Russell M. Nelson and Co. that you really pledge your life and allegiance.

Am I wrong about this?
Well... Legally, all of us old folks promised to give everything to a Trademark™.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints did not exist as a legal entity until 2019 when R. Marion shook up the legal names and entities (and trademarks?)

Plagiarized/Elipsis-ified by Fluffy from Reddit:
Title: Legal Status of Incorporation and the Legal Name of the LDS Church

...
The Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was incorporated in Utah on July 13, 1916. (Source)

The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was incorporated in Utah on November 26, 1923. (Source)

The Edmunds-Tucker Act was repealed on November 2, 1978 (Source) making the need for the various and obtusely named corporations moot. Because with this repeal, the LDS Church could now legally reincorporate as a distinct entity.

The Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was renamed The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on June 18, 2019. ...

If you search the Utah State database for public information on Corporations you will find that The Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was incorporated again, with the same LDS Church address on July 8, 2019. It is unclear what responsibilities this new corporation retained from the previous one.

Also, this database lists the status of The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as expired on December 31, 2020 and merged--although it doesn't say with which corporation. I assume that the previously cited Salt Lake Tribune article is correct in declaring that it was merged with the newly renamed corporation of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Another fun fact is that a DBA (Doing Business As) filing was first completed for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on October 19, 2018. Which was 11 days after Russell Nelson reaffirmed "the correct name" of the LDS Church. A DBA filing does not create an official corporation, but it is a legal declaration that the name will be a name your organization will be "doing business as."
...
WWMJD?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

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Palerider
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Re: The new throat-slitting

Post by Palerider » Wed Apr 10, 2024 11:47 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:33 am
True, you swear before God and Angels, but it is to Russell M. Nelson and Co. that you really pledge your life and allegiance.

Am I wrong about this?
You are not wrong.

If you go back and listen to Rusty's closing talk, he makes a statement regarding "making covenants with God AND YOUR LEADERS."

I was a little surprised at that. Apparently in his tiny little mind one is just as important as the other.

Too bad for him that the entire LDS covenant doctrine is perverse and corrupt.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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alas
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Re: The new throat-slitting

Post by alas » Wed Apr 10, 2024 12:35 pm

Also, any contract made under false pretenses, or under duress is void. And we were not informed ahead of time what the covenant was going to be, and holding a person’s marriage or mission over their head if they refuse is duress. So, even if we covenant to RustyAlmighty, the contract is null and void because it is not given with informed consent. They can take their imaginary covenant and keep pretending they are important.

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nibbler
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Re: The new throat-slitting

Post by nibbler » Wed Apr 10, 2024 1:11 pm

If covenants are an if I do this then I'll you'll do that agreement and if you're no longer interested in the you'll do that part of the agreement then you're no longer beholden to the I'll do this part of the agreement. If you don't live up to the covenant, it's less infuriating a vengeful god, and more opting out of a theoretical reward.

Covenants in the church are of the "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" variety. In this life the covenant is one-sided. 100% of the action of the covenant is performed by us in this life. God isn't on the hook until a theoretical next life. We're expected to give hamburger after hamburger after hamburger throughout our entire lives for a god that will pay us back one Tuesday in the future. A Tuesday no man knoweth, not the angles in heaven, nor the son, but the father alone. Great deal, right?

Imagine if other covenants worked that way. Let's consider mortgages. I'll pay a mortgage for a house the bank won't allow me to move into, hell the bank won't even allow me to see the house, but I get to live in a perfect version of that house after I die. I wasn't interested in that deal until the bank started to use tactics to make me afraid of not taking it.

How do we know anything about the "you'll do that" portion of the agreement? From religious leaders? Because they have such a good track record for being altruistic and reliable.

Living a principled life is its own reward. I don't need a church threatening to slit my throat or threatening to turn my family against me to live a principled life.
We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.
– Anais Nin

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Hagoth
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Re: The new throat-slitting

Post by Hagoth » Wed Apr 10, 2024 4:08 pm

nibbler wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2024 1:11 pm
Covenants in the church are of the "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" variety. In this life the covenant is one-sided. 100% of the action of the covenant is performed by us in this life. God isn't on the hook until a theoretical next life. We're expected to give hamburger after hamburger after hamburger throughout our entire lives for a god that will pay us back one Tuesday in the future. A Tuesday no man knoweth, not the angles in heaven, nor the son, but the father alone. Great deal, right?
I love this parable from The Gospel of Wimpy!

This is the genius of Joseph Smith. He switched from magic to religion when he realized he could get money from people without having to deliver treasure until after they're dead.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: The new throat-slitting

Post by Hagoth » Wed Apr 10, 2024 4:22 pm

Here's another way to look at the covenants.

We have established that they are made to earthly authorities, not to supernatural entities. In order to enter the temple you had to declare that you are honest in your dealings with your fellowmen. So did our exalted leaders. But they are monumental examples of dishonesty in their dealings with their fellowmen, including their loyal followers, the SEC, and the IRS. It doesn't matter what approach I take to the covenants, THEY have already voided the contract. Even the members who keep firmly to the center of the covenant path have no reason to expect that those guys can guarantee them any kind of payment in the next life, considering that they can't even set an example of keeping up their end of the bargain in this life.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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