Losing my faith meant that I no longer was afraid of burning in hell for eternity if I got divorced. This made me reevaluate my marriage. Did I really want to stay married to this same person that I may have hastily married when I was young while being driven primarily by hormones? Did I make the right choice? Is it possible that I could be happier with someone else? I think this must be common so I wanted to talk about it. Here are my thoughts on the matter:
* Regardless of what happened in the past or why, I can only make choices for my present and future. Reasons why we got married in the first place is water under the bridge. Sunk costs. They should play no part in my decisions for the future.
* The grass isn’t as green on the other side of the fence as it may look. The failure rate for second marriages is much higher than it is for first marriages. Other potential partners/spouses have just as much baggage that I don’t want to deal with, and likely more.
* The field is no longer white already to harvest. At my age there aren’t many good ones on the market. Therefore, the probability that I would find someone better isn't great.
* I’m no longer as young and as good looking as I may like to think.
* I love my kids. Breaking up my family would hurt them tremendously. I’m willing to make sacrifices to avoid hurting them and to make their lives better.
* My wife and I have essentially grown up together. We have spent so much time together, and have so many shared experiences that we kind of think alike. She and our shared experiences have helped shape who I am. I’d have to get reprogrammed to start that process over (desires, ways of doing things, expectations) and it wouldn’t be easy.
* Based on observations from other divorces, it is way more painful than most people anticipate when they make the decision. It often results in financial devastation; starting back near square one. And, you lose most of your friends through the process.
* The in-love phenomenon burns bright with someone else for only a short time (about 2 years according to John Grey) and then it goes away again. The new person eventually turns into “just that woman over there”. Then I'm back where I am, only likely worse off.
* Peace is more akin to happiness than excitement is. That was a big revelation for me.
So for me, I’ve decided that I am married to my wife because I want to be. It’s my best life option going forward. It's a good life. She cares about me, and I care about her. This realization (I’m staying married because I WANT to) has actually improved our marriage tremendously. I no longer think she should be perfect and I don’t expect her to be. I no longer expect myself to be perfect, and I’m open about my own shortcomings as well and it has improved the emotional intimacy in our marriage. I revel in the peace we have together and enjoy it.
Have you reevaluated your marriage? How has your faith transition affected your relationship with your spouse.
Reevaluating Your Marriage
Reevaluating Your Marriage
Always been the good kid, but I wanted to know more, and to find and test truth.
Re: Reevaluating Your Marriage
As I read through your list I couldn't help thinking- just go for the best of both worlds like Joseph did. The man was a genius. 
The faith transition has improved our marriage a lot but marriage is hard work. Kids make it a lot harder (maybe just my kids??) I don't subscribe to the notion that anything hard is worth the effort but many worthwhile things are hard. Both my wife and I decided that we are worth the effort independent of any third party, whether it be the church, family, the holy spook or Jesus (sorry aunt Wendy!). It's made our union stronger and more satisfying for both of us.
I have some friends and family who think it shouldn't be that hard but interestingly they haven't had a successful relationship despite many attempts. But take that for what's it worth, quite possibly nothing. One individual who's been in at least 1/2 a dozen serious, semi-long term and ultimately disastrous relationships chalked it up to simple bad luck. Who am I to argue?
The faith transition has improved our marriage a lot but marriage is hard work. Kids make it a lot harder (maybe just my kids??) I don't subscribe to the notion that anything hard is worth the effort but many worthwhile things are hard. Both my wife and I decided that we are worth the effort independent of any third party, whether it be the church, family, the holy spook or Jesus (sorry aunt Wendy!). It's made our union stronger and more satisfying for both of us.
I have some friends and family who think it shouldn't be that hard but interestingly they haven't had a successful relationship despite many attempts. But take that for what's it worth, quite possibly nothing. One individual who's been in at least 1/2 a dozen serious, semi-long term and ultimately disastrous relationships chalked it up to simple bad luck. Who am I to argue?
Re: Reevaluating Your Marriage
Goodboy,
I can relate and have thought much of what you mentioned.
Marriage is tough - and things like inter-faith issues add to the difficulty.
Some days, I dream of escape... other days I'm more hopeful.
Through it all, I try to maintain realistic expectations.
I can relate and have thought much of what you mentioned.
Marriage is tough - and things like inter-faith issues add to the difficulty.
Some days, I dream of escape... other days I'm more hopeful.
Through it all, I try to maintain realistic expectations.
Re: Reevaluating Your Marriage
I admit I look at other marriages and assume theirs are easier than mine. I've always been disappointed by the amount of work it takes to keep my marriage happy. I've stayed for the kids. I admit that I often wonder if I married someone "easier" to get along with that it wouldn't be so hard. I'm probably kidding myself. Great OP, made me re-evaluate my thinking. *for the record, it's not a bad marriage in all aspects but it is often hard.
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Not Buying It
- Posts: 1308
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Re: Reevaluating Your Marriage
Going slow is generally important. Keep in mind there is such a thing as too slow - you may find you waited too long and your kids are too heavily indoctrinated to ever get them to see how things really stand. The longer you wait, the longer the Church has to get its claws into them.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph
Re: Reevaluating Your Marriage
When we got married we had two things in common: we both wanted to have sex with each other, and we shared the same religion. Our eternal marriage is what kept up together for a number of years, as our hobbies and interests had nothing to do with each other. In fact, her hobbies were like scratching fingers of chalkboard to me and vice versa. But it wasn't just the hobbies and interests, our personalities were stifling to each other. I have social anxieties and while I have many friends, I don't go out much. She was a person who thrived on couples' dates and entertaining. If we stayed home, she went nuts, if we went out all the time, I would be massively stressed out. I'm a saver, she's a spender. She's a snuggler, extended human contact makes me want to jump out of my skin. Our senses of humor were fundamentally different, our parenting style was different, our backgrounds were different.
When we left the church, we still had two things in common: Firefly & Serenity, and we shared the same religion (now Episcopalian). Our marriage was no longer tied to our religion, and ultimately after having our temple marriage nullified (by resigning) we were both re-evaluating our marriage. I thought we would be able to save our marriage, she did not. She made the first step and we separated four months after our resignation from the church. When she left, she told me something, I'm doing this to set you free and to set myself free. I didn't believer her at the time.
Some of you know what happened to me next, but I'm going to skip over that period.
I'm watching her in her new marriage. I was totally confused at first because her husband and I are very close friends and he has many of the same traits as me (he's a classical musician [tenor] and spends a significant amount of time in rehearsal, he has a similar sense of humor to mine [filthy], and he's continually out of style [my ex-wife is very fashionable and dresses well]). When they first got together, I assumed they were doomed, after all, with his interests being so close to mine and our marriage so bad, how would they survive?
Well, the fundamental difference is that: he's a social person who loves to entertain, who loves to go out, who loves to snuggle, he loves to spend, and they have the personality that matches even though their interests are different. I realized that while similar interests in marriage are important, personality conflicts are far more damaging than conflicting hobbies and interests. I watch them and I realize that this marriage probably will be successful, and I hope it is, I genuinely do.
Much of the re-evaluation of my marriage occurred after I was divorced. I got married because of the church. At the time (and I can corroborate this with my journal, this isn't re-writing my past) I didn't actually want to get married. I wanted to remain single, I lived alone before my mission, I struggled on my mission with living with a companion and other people. I have crippling OCD and marriage is a really bad thing for me. When I married, even during the honeymoon period, I longed to live alone. That feeling eventually went away and I settled into married life and the change from married to single almost killed me. But to be honest, the change from single to married almost killed me as well.
That re-evaluation of marriage for me showed me that our marriage was not OK, and my ex-wife made the right move to get a divorce. Part of this re-evaluation is what has led us to remain friends, not just amicable but a genuine friendship, after this marriage. Because we did love each other, but our personalities were both killing the other. Now, we have shared two genuine journeys in life which have sealed our friendship: we have (and are as co-parents) raising four beautiful children and we both went through a 5 year process of leaving the church together.
I'm happy that you have a great marriage, Goodboy, and if I'm allowed to say this, I've met your wife and I think she is awesome. Congrats to both of you from the bottom of my heart!
When we left the church, we still had two things in common: Firefly & Serenity, and we shared the same religion (now Episcopalian). Our marriage was no longer tied to our religion, and ultimately after having our temple marriage nullified (by resigning) we were both re-evaluating our marriage. I thought we would be able to save our marriage, she did not. She made the first step and we separated four months after our resignation from the church. When she left, she told me something, I'm doing this to set you free and to set myself free. I didn't believer her at the time.
Some of you know what happened to me next, but I'm going to skip over that period.
I'm watching her in her new marriage. I was totally confused at first because her husband and I are very close friends and he has many of the same traits as me (he's a classical musician [tenor] and spends a significant amount of time in rehearsal, he has a similar sense of humor to mine [filthy], and he's continually out of style [my ex-wife is very fashionable and dresses well]). When they first got together, I assumed they were doomed, after all, with his interests being so close to mine and our marriage so bad, how would they survive?
Well, the fundamental difference is that: he's a social person who loves to entertain, who loves to go out, who loves to snuggle, he loves to spend, and they have the personality that matches even though their interests are different. I realized that while similar interests in marriage are important, personality conflicts are far more damaging than conflicting hobbies and interests. I watch them and I realize that this marriage probably will be successful, and I hope it is, I genuinely do.
Much of the re-evaluation of my marriage occurred after I was divorced. I got married because of the church. At the time (and I can corroborate this with my journal, this isn't re-writing my past) I didn't actually want to get married. I wanted to remain single, I lived alone before my mission, I struggled on my mission with living with a companion and other people. I have crippling OCD and marriage is a really bad thing for me. When I married, even during the honeymoon period, I longed to live alone. That feeling eventually went away and I settled into married life and the change from married to single almost killed me. But to be honest, the change from single to married almost killed me as well.
That re-evaluation of marriage for me showed me that our marriage was not OK, and my ex-wife made the right move to get a divorce. Part of this re-evaluation is what has led us to remain friends, not just amicable but a genuine friendship, after this marriage. Because we did love each other, but our personalities were both killing the other. Now, we have shared two genuine journeys in life which have sealed our friendship: we have (and are as co-parents) raising four beautiful children and we both went through a 5 year process of leaving the church together.
I'm happy that you have a great marriage, Goodboy, and if I'm allowed to say this, I've met your wife and I think she is awesome. Congrats to both of you from the bottom of my heart!
Re: Reevaluating Your Marriage
First of all let me thank you Goodboy for opening this door. Your posts always seem to be well thought out and interesting.
I think it would be hard to go through a faith transition away from the corporation without the need for a marriage re-evaluation. The formula for marriage according to said corp is to find someone who looks compatible as soon as you can after a full time mission (or after reaching puberty-which ever comes first ) and after praying about your choice marry quickly in the temple and start a family as soon as possible.
IMO this often leads to very stressful unions with the added dimension of children soon after the vows are spoken. Life then is busy busy busy. Usually so busy the partners never really get to know one another outside the box of the church and what it leads us to believe is normal. Post faith crisis makes us look at everything with different filters and we want to live our own valid life.
In my case I found that I questioned my decision regarding my partner choice and wondered if the "confirmation of the spirit" was as valid as the one which told me the church was all true. What a mess.
For my DW, I think it has been even harder/worse. All of a sudden she is stuck with a heretic for a DH who doesn't value all the sacred things we no so long ago jointly held dear. I think the past couple of years have held the possibility of divorce out there for us to consider. So far we have determined that it is better to try to make our marriage work despite the often intrusive elephant in the room and are trying to take care of that elephant one bite at a time. So far so good.
As of today, I think our marriage is better and happier then ever. The difficult discussions we have had and the future ones which probably are still to come tell me our relationship is more real then the illusion of bliss we enjoyed while being under the influence of the corporation.
Hope is once more.
I think it would be hard to go through a faith transition away from the corporation without the need for a marriage re-evaluation. The formula for marriage according to said corp is to find someone who looks compatible as soon as you can after a full time mission (or after reaching puberty-which ever comes first
) and after praying about your choice marry quickly in the temple and start a family as soon as possible. IMO this often leads to very stressful unions with the added dimension of children soon after the vows are spoken. Life then is busy busy busy. Usually so busy the partners never really get to know one another outside the box of the church and what it leads us to believe is normal. Post faith crisis makes us look at everything with different filters and we want to live our own valid life.
In my case I found that I questioned my decision regarding my partner choice and wondered if the "confirmation of the spirit" was as valid as the one which told me the church was all true. What a mess.
For my DW, I think it has been even harder/worse. All of a sudden she is stuck with a heretic for a DH who doesn't value all the sacred things we no so long ago jointly held dear. I think the past couple of years have held the possibility of divorce out there for us to consider. So far we have determined that it is better to try to make our marriage work despite the often intrusive elephant in the room and are trying to take care of that elephant one bite at a time. So far so good.
As of today, I think our marriage is better and happier then ever. The difficult discussions we have had and the future ones which probably are still to come tell me our relationship is more real then the illusion of bliss we enjoyed while being under the influence of the corporation.
Hope is once more.
Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and right doing, there is a field. I'll meet you there.
Rumi
Rumi
Re: Reevaluating Your Marriage
The status of marriage Is a real paradox in the LDS church. It is enshrined as part of the highest sacraments, but church culture does not think twice when two children want to get married in an arrangement that that is very difficult to break from both a legal and ecclesiastic standpoint. Short courtships and engagements are common and a lot of relationships are held together through social pressure and force of will. I'm not sure what the correct answer should be since sometimes good families and good marriages arise out of relationships built on hormones and hasty decisions.
This is further complicated with a faith transition comes up after years into a marriage and children are involved. I don't have a good solution to this inevitable confrontation. After we leave the LDS faith of our youth we certainly have to establish a new basis for morality. We also must establish a new basis for why we are married to our spouse. Neither belief system survives unscathed.
This is further complicated with a faith transition comes up after years into a marriage and children are involved. I don't have a good solution to this inevitable confrontation. After we leave the LDS faith of our youth we certainly have to establish a new basis for morality. We also must establish a new basis for why we are married to our spouse. Neither belief system survives unscathed.
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Lithium Sunset
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Re: Reevaluating Your Marriage
On the other side of the coin(maybe it's on the same side), I have been wanting ask NOM members, particularly women, how they left their marriage when the spouse didn't want a divorce. I will when I have time.
I can reevaluate my marriage all I want but until I get a degree (or go live off of others while I work at Target to gain work experience) I feel like I have few options for all the answers I come up with.
I don't have time or energy(and it might not be a good idea.. I have been loose lips to a lot of professionals lately) to pour in my feelings and thoughts into this thread although I wish I did.
I told my husband the other night that my dream, when I am older, is to be sitting on the couch with my grandchildren watching Fraggle Rock and petting my cat. He didn't say anything about him not being included... maybe because he couldn't sit through Fraggle Rock or maybe because he didn't want to face that he wasn't there in my snapshot.
I don't want to get remarried ever but then again I am still married now so that's premature I suppose. Old Lady with a cat.... I can dig that future. Or old lady with a cat, living with a female friend who feels that same way.
darn... now I'm late.
I can reevaluate my marriage all I want but until I get a degree (or go live off of others while I work at Target to gain work experience) I feel like I have few options for all the answers I come up with.
I don't have time or energy(and it might not be a good idea.. I have been loose lips to a lot of professionals lately) to pour in my feelings and thoughts into this thread although I wish I did.
I told my husband the other night that my dream, when I am older, is to be sitting on the couch with my grandchildren watching Fraggle Rock and petting my cat. He didn't say anything about him not being included... maybe because he couldn't sit through Fraggle Rock or maybe because he didn't want to face that he wasn't there in my snapshot.
I don't want to get remarried ever but then again I am still married now so that's premature I suppose. Old Lady with a cat.... I can dig that future. Or old lady with a cat, living with a female friend who feels that same way.
darn... now I'm late.
"The real things haven't changed. It is still best to be honest and truthful; to make the most of what we have; to be happy with simple pleasures; and have courage when things go wrong." -Laura Ingalls Wilder
Re: Reevaluating Your Marriage
Thanks for the post goodboy. Very thought provoking. I'm glad that after reevaluation things are well with you and your DW. For my part, I struggle. Been married only once to someone I am very, very different than. We no longer have the church as a common interest. Even our approach to our joint outness is different. She's moved on entirely. I still follow things LDS out of curiosity, if nothing else. She wonders why I still care at all. We share our kids as common interests and have a lot of shared experience, but not a lot more than that. I largely suppress who I am in order to not make waves. One the very rare occasions, I do speak my mind, we fight, which I can't stand. I grew up with TBM parents who fought constantly and it made me crazy. I respect DW hugely. She is a much better person than I, but I cannot be like her, it's just not who I am. In the meantime, I suppress who I am and continue to juggle the hand grenade hand I have been dealt.
Are you on the square? Are you on the level?
Re: Reevaluating Your Marriage
I think your list is pretty on target, GoodBoy. While there are some good reasons to end a marriage immediately (abuse, addiction, etc), if the main reason you are considering your options is "discontent," then you probably know that discontent at some level will be a part of almost any marriage (and career and life in general, for that matter). The best path forward is based on where you are now, not the best of all possible worlds had you been able to know the future back when you were 20-ish. I think all of us here know that marriage is way more than being "in love" - it's a legal unit for raising a family, it's a business partnership, it's companionship and someone who has your back. Having a partner in life is a great thing, and it's only when your partner isn't willing to do those things anymore that you're probably better off looking for someone else, not because your hoping for an "upgrade."
Good luck!
fh451
Good luck!
fh451
Re: Reevaluating Your Marriage
Man, this post is relevant for me right now. Thanks for the thread Goodboy.
My wife and I are dealing with this now. We are finally getting to the point where we can have discussions without having an emotional blowout. My wife has made it clear that if she had a time machine she would go back and not marry me, and if I'm being honest I feel the same way. But now we have 2 kids and they are so happy in the home we have made together. So the time machine thing shouldn't even be considered.
Reading through Document's comments about the personality conflicts between he and his ex-wife sound like he is describing me and my wife, but switched. What one person enjoys the other person can't stand. Right now the thing we have in common is our kids and Bones, and that is nice, but it would be nice to have a little more. But there are plenty of joyful moments embedded in this matrix of sad incompatibility. And splitting up would be so painful for us and probably our kids.
So we both wonder if joyful moments and not having the pain of divorce is worth the matrix of sad incompatibility. Perhaps it would be better if this faith crisis were the catalyst for us to both find a better fit for our lives. If we would be better off divorced, and that is where we are heading anyway, then I don't want to destroy her faith and de-convert her. But if we are going to be together then I will work to help her see the follies of our indoctrination.
This is all complicated by my anxiety over commitment. The perfect marriage vows for me would be way more limited than til death. How about til the kids are in school and we can re-evaluate then? And then through high school. Etc. I just don't know what the future will bring and I don't feel comfortable committing to lifelong devotion. I would probably never have gotten married at all without the heavy social pressure the church applies.
So I waffle back and forth between thinking staying together is the right thing for everyone's happiness to thinking that ripping off the band-aid and splitting up would be the right thing. The faith crisis really brought these issues to the surface, but I would be lying if I said I never thought like this while we were both TBM, and I am pretty sure she did too.
My wife and I are dealing with this now. We are finally getting to the point where we can have discussions without having an emotional blowout. My wife has made it clear that if she had a time machine she would go back and not marry me, and if I'm being honest I feel the same way. But now we have 2 kids and they are so happy in the home we have made together. So the time machine thing shouldn't even be considered.
Reading through Document's comments about the personality conflicts between he and his ex-wife sound like he is describing me and my wife, but switched. What one person enjoys the other person can't stand. Right now the thing we have in common is our kids and Bones, and that is nice, but it would be nice to have a little more. But there are plenty of joyful moments embedded in this matrix of sad incompatibility. And splitting up would be so painful for us and probably our kids.
So we both wonder if joyful moments and not having the pain of divorce is worth the matrix of sad incompatibility. Perhaps it would be better if this faith crisis were the catalyst for us to both find a better fit for our lives. If we would be better off divorced, and that is where we are heading anyway, then I don't want to destroy her faith and de-convert her. But if we are going to be together then I will work to help her see the follies of our indoctrination.
This is all complicated by my anxiety over commitment. The perfect marriage vows for me would be way more limited than til death. How about til the kids are in school and we can re-evaluate then? And then through high school. Etc. I just don't know what the future will bring and I don't feel comfortable committing to lifelong devotion. I would probably never have gotten married at all without the heavy social pressure the church applies.
So I waffle back and forth between thinking staying together is the right thing for everyone's happiness to thinking that ripping off the band-aid and splitting up would be the right thing. The faith crisis really brought these issues to the surface, but I would be lying if I said I never thought like this while we were both TBM, and I am pretty sure she did too.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut
Re: Reevaluating Your Marriageq
I think I had an advantage in not being really TBM when we married. I didn't really want to be married as young as I did, but I wanted to marry DH. I was very intellectual about my pick, with a list of traits I wanted and down somewhere around the bottom of the page was that I was in love/lust. Our families were friends with my oldest brother being close friends with now DH, my next brother dating the younger sister, I was friends with the sister, and our younger brothers were best friends. We had a lot in common, with really our biggest difference being our outlook on the church. So, rather than it being the main thing we had in common, it was one of our biggest differences.
So, I didn't reevaluate the marriage when I stopped believing, because I never really did fully believe. And it wasn't far into the marriage when I decided I was Christian but not Mormon because I just could not accept Joseph Smith, polygamy, BoM, D&C. But when I came out as an non believer to DH, he did reevaluate the marriage.
One thing that GoodBoy mentioned that I think is worth seriously considering is the baggage idea. My daughter has had two marriages end in divorce. As far as I can see, she falls in lust and loses her brains. But then see above for how I picked my spouse--all brains while suppressing any lust. But she is now attempting to date and take her mother's advice to avoid the lust and not lose her brains, but she is doing a lousy job of it from my perspective. And the pickings is slim and the guys have their baggage, and so does she. So, with the current guy she is dating, they have baggage fights. "You did X, which is exactly what my ex used to do to me." Met with, "Well, you tried to control me to prevent me from doing X which is exactly how my ex used to control me." So, they spend lots of time telling each other how to act to avoid triggers and stepping on triggers and yelling at each other for stepping on triggers, and accusing each other of being just like their ex. I think they are weaponizing the baggage by throwing suitcases at each other.
So, like fh451 says, if you are feeling discontent, be careful. The grass isn't always greener. If you think your marriage is hard, you need to have a second think, because dating after divorce is even harder. The success rate for second marriages is worse than 50/50. The success rate for first marriages is around 70-80% but the success rate for *all* marriages is only 50/50 because when you combine second+ marriages into the statistics the failure rate of second and third marriages being at 70-80 percent, it pulls the statistics down. Dear Abby once gave the advice for whether or not to divorce as to whether you would be happier without them. Notice she said nothing about imagining yourself happier with someone else, just happier without them.
So, I didn't reevaluate the marriage when I stopped believing, because I never really did fully believe. And it wasn't far into the marriage when I decided I was Christian but not Mormon because I just could not accept Joseph Smith, polygamy, BoM, D&C. But when I came out as an non believer to DH, he did reevaluate the marriage.
One thing that GoodBoy mentioned that I think is worth seriously considering is the baggage idea. My daughter has had two marriages end in divorce. As far as I can see, she falls in lust and loses her brains. But then see above for how I picked my spouse--all brains while suppressing any lust. But she is now attempting to date and take her mother's advice to avoid the lust and not lose her brains, but she is doing a lousy job of it from my perspective. And the pickings is slim and the guys have their baggage, and so does she. So, with the current guy she is dating, they have baggage fights. "You did X, which is exactly what my ex used to do to me." Met with, "Well, you tried to control me to prevent me from doing X which is exactly how my ex used to control me." So, they spend lots of time telling each other how to act to avoid triggers and stepping on triggers and yelling at each other for stepping on triggers, and accusing each other of being just like their ex. I think they are weaponizing the baggage by throwing suitcases at each other.
So, like fh451 says, if you are feeling discontent, be careful. The grass isn't always greener. If you think your marriage is hard, you need to have a second think, because dating after divorce is even harder. The success rate for second marriages is worse than 50/50. The success rate for first marriages is around 70-80% but the success rate for *all* marriages is only 50/50 because when you combine second+ marriages into the statistics the failure rate of second and third marriages being at 70-80 percent, it pulls the statistics down. Dear Abby once gave the advice for whether or not to divorce as to whether you would be happier without them. Notice she said nothing about imagining yourself happier with someone else, just happier without them.
Re: Reevaluating Your Marriage
Thanks everyone for your thoughtful replies. I wish we could all hang out and stay up late talking about some of these things. It gave me a lot more to think about. Some additional thoughts:
We all realize that we all are driven by sex. We can't help it. It is the oldest and deepest part of our evolutionary makeup and emotions. That isn't going away. I think that the church's emphasis on not masturbating and staying strictly away from anything that might "start your engine" makes us (men especially in my opinion) beholden to our spouses and angling, cajoling, etc. for a chance to release that sexual energy. Masturbation releases some of that energy and makes us also take a more relaxed, rational and somewhat less emotional view of our relationships. The church's prohibition of masturbation or external stimuli probably gives them more control over people.
Also, my observations are that as we age our motivations and drivers for staying in relationships changes. It becomes much less about sex and more about companionship. Also, as the kids leave the house the potential damage to them from a divorce decreases. It might still make them unhappy, but it won't scar or disadvantage them nearly as much since they are busy living their own lives.
The questions alluded to by Document, The Beast, and Lithium Sunset of "Would I be happier living the rest of my life alone?" is probably the right question to ask ourselves. Of course it would have to work financially. We also probably shouldn't ignore the research that states that happiness is highly correlated with the quality of relationships with others, so most people probably still need fairly regular interaction with a few close friendships or family to be content. Or... like many couples do, they negotiate a new arrangement where they don't have to interact with each other quite as often, and instead just do things that each enjoys without forcing their partner to come along. It seems like half of the older people in my family have one of these relationships where they kind of live together, but separate lives.
We all realize that we all are driven by sex. We can't help it. It is the oldest and deepest part of our evolutionary makeup and emotions. That isn't going away. I think that the church's emphasis on not masturbating and staying strictly away from anything that might "start your engine" makes us (men especially in my opinion) beholden to our spouses and angling, cajoling, etc. for a chance to release that sexual energy. Masturbation releases some of that energy and makes us also take a more relaxed, rational and somewhat less emotional view of our relationships. The church's prohibition of masturbation or external stimuli probably gives them more control over people.
Also, my observations are that as we age our motivations and drivers for staying in relationships changes. It becomes much less about sex and more about companionship. Also, as the kids leave the house the potential damage to them from a divorce decreases. It might still make them unhappy, but it won't scar or disadvantage them nearly as much since they are busy living their own lives.
The questions alluded to by Document, The Beast, and Lithium Sunset of "Would I be happier living the rest of my life alone?" is probably the right question to ask ourselves. Of course it would have to work financially. We also probably shouldn't ignore the research that states that happiness is highly correlated with the quality of relationships with others, so most people probably still need fairly regular interaction with a few close friendships or family to be content. Or... like many couples do, they negotiate a new arrangement where they don't have to interact with each other quite as often, and instead just do things that each enjoys without forcing their partner to come along. It seems like half of the older people in my family have one of these relationships where they kind of live together, but separate lives.
Always been the good kid, but I wanted to know more, and to find and test truth.
Re: Reevaluating Your Marriage
This is a rough subject for me right now.
Are we carrying some of our past mormon beliefs on marriage into this conversation? Specifically the idea to marry again? What if a second marriage isn't the long term goal? What if it's possible to date and find a compatible companion and stay in the chemical romance phase of the relationship until it wears off then rinse and repeat? Would such an arrangement bring long term happiness? I don't think so but as alas said above, the grass is always greener over the septic tank.
Are we carrying some of our past mormon beliefs on marriage into this conversation? Specifically the idea to marry again? What if a second marriage isn't the long term goal? What if it's possible to date and find a compatible companion and stay in the chemical romance phase of the relationship until it wears off then rinse and repeat? Would such an arrangement bring long term happiness? I don't think so but as alas said above, the grass is always greener over the septic tank.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
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MerrieMiss
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Re: Reevaluating Your Marriage
There are a lot of good thoughts here. I particularly like the first two points. Why I married is over and done with. Life changes, we change, our relationships change. It’s about the present and moving forward. Also, none of us knows what life is really like for other people. We don’t know what their marriages are like, what their personalities are like, and asking the “What ifs?” about the past (or future) do no good and perhaps more than a little harm by indulging in fantasy that doesn’t take reality in account.
I disagree about divorce not being difficult on grown children. It’s not unlike the situation where a parent says, “I never believed in the church but I raised you in it anyway.” The family relationship becomes a lie. Life between the kids and grandchildren and grandparents and step-grandparents can be horribly fractured. It can make the children doubt the relationships they are currently in. And worst of all, I think, parents who divorce when their kids are grown don’t give their children the same respect they would if they were still children, i.e. bad mouthing the other parent, talking about money, sex (either in or out of the marriage,) enlisting the child as a mediator, or whatever, simply because the kids are now “grown-up” and should be able to handle it. Adults often work very hard to shelter young children through a divorce. But even adult children are still in a child-parent relationship and a divorce threatens what was once stable ground, no matter the child’s age. As is the case with any divorce, some do work out better than others, but having grown kids does not erase any of the pain the children may feel, any of the inconvenience, or the need to take sides. Just my observation.
Part of a healthy relationship is being different and allowing those differences. Spending time together is important. But so is spending time apart. Have friends together, as well as friends apart. Have different interests, and have some that are the same. Being in a relationship should not be all-consuming. Too often on boards like these (not this one necessarily), whether TBM or non-believing it seems that a person wants their spouse to behave, enjoy life, and believe in the exact same ways. I have a NOM couple in my family who fight because the things they disbelieve about the church aren’t the same things.
One of the benefits of my marriage is that I did marry someone who is very unlike me. We have always had separate interests although now that we have kids we find spending time with our interests and with each other increasingly difficult to manage. Personality conflict can be huge. I’m also fortunate my husband is naturally very easy going.
I’ve seen the comparison of people being more like cats or like dogs. Well, I’m a cat, no doubt, and my husband is more like a dog - he likes everyone and everyone likes him. Cats love him. He was the only person his parent’s cat would play with. Our cat sleeps on his side of the bed, engages him with play, and was snuggling with him this morning while he worked. So, I guess it makes sense we got married - cats just can't resist him. It’s not natural for a cat and dog to get along, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t work out. That being said, as the cat in the relationship, I’m the one who is usually difficult.
I disagree about divorce not being difficult on grown children. It’s not unlike the situation where a parent says, “I never believed in the church but I raised you in it anyway.” The family relationship becomes a lie. Life between the kids and grandchildren and grandparents and step-grandparents can be horribly fractured. It can make the children doubt the relationships they are currently in. And worst of all, I think, parents who divorce when their kids are grown don’t give their children the same respect they would if they were still children, i.e. bad mouthing the other parent, talking about money, sex (either in or out of the marriage,) enlisting the child as a mediator, or whatever, simply because the kids are now “grown-up” and should be able to handle it. Adults often work very hard to shelter young children through a divorce. But even adult children are still in a child-parent relationship and a divorce threatens what was once stable ground, no matter the child’s age. As is the case with any divorce, some do work out better than others, but having grown kids does not erase any of the pain the children may feel, any of the inconvenience, or the need to take sides. Just my observation.
Part of a healthy relationship is being different and allowing those differences. Spending time together is important. But so is spending time apart. Have friends together, as well as friends apart. Have different interests, and have some that are the same. Being in a relationship should not be all-consuming. Too often on boards like these (not this one necessarily), whether TBM or non-believing it seems that a person wants their spouse to behave, enjoy life, and believe in the exact same ways. I have a NOM couple in my family who fight because the things they disbelieve about the church aren’t the same things.
One of the benefits of my marriage is that I did marry someone who is very unlike me. We have always had separate interests although now that we have kids we find spending time with our interests and with each other increasingly difficult to manage. Personality conflict can be huge. I’m also fortunate my husband is naturally very easy going.
I’ve seen the comparison of people being more like cats or like dogs. Well, I’m a cat, no doubt, and my husband is more like a dog - he likes everyone and everyone likes him. Cats love him. He was the only person his parent’s cat would play with. Our cat sleeps on his side of the bed, engages him with play, and was snuggling with him this morning while he worked. So, I guess it makes sense we got married - cats just can't resist him. It’s not natural for a cat and dog to get along, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t work out. That being said, as the cat in the relationship, I’m the one who is usually difficult.
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