Apostle Fireside

[Corsair]

Well done, Azflyer. I really appreciate the incisive question that you posed. It sounds like the apostles have already given the best answers they possibly can. It's simply a question of whether or not their answers resonate with each individual person, and putting any faith into apologetics seems unfruitful. The measured and crafted honesty of getting the same answer to this question posed yet again is more enlightening than LDS leaders may have foreseen. The real answer is that if you don't like official, apostolic answers then perhaps you should look elsewhere with your questions.

I think every person on this forum has already answered that for themselves. At this point it's simply strategies of how wards and families can function with people that don't accept what has been given.

[Red Ryder]

I can confirm! I saw and heard AZ flyer with my own eyes and ears. It was asked in a sincere way but sucked the energy and momentum out of the meeting when you started the question with the we live in the Information Age, the endowment can be found on YouTube.... Kudos to Rasband for not shutting you down.

Ballard jumped up fast to answer.

He was a little defensive at the beginning suggesting that the church doesn't hide anything and said "that's why we wrote all the gospel topic essays! I suggest everyone here tonight read them." He then talked about some of his missionaries from his MP days coming to him with questions. He asked them when they last read the BOM. When they come back, they no longer have questions or concerns. He then suggested everyone read, pray, etc. Then he suggested AZFlyer or anyone with family members with concerns write to him before saying "never mind, do me a favor and you just tell them what I said tonight!" Then he turned and sat down. He said some other things that were in reference to the meeting content including the fact that everyone there tonight would die (in a humorous way). People around us were saying, "that was a great question!"

Another woman stood up and asked for help on how to explain to family and friends that children of gay parents can't be baptized. Rasband took that one and said the initial policy may have been misunderstood and referred her to LDS.org, the newsroom, or her bishop. He didn't entertain the question beyond that.

Overall, it was a decent meeting with less gloom and doom than normal. Mostly how to raise kids when social media can give a false impression that life is perfect, everyone is fit and fashionable, and fantastic when they may not feel the same way.

The newest GA from Argentina spoke on ... Yep pornography. But he took a different approach that was healthy. Parents should expect there teens to come across pornography some time in there life and parents should talk to kids about it being an occurrence but not a pattern. He was this cute little guy with an awesome accent and not the normal white guy from Utah.

Overall I left there not wanting to pull out my eyeballs. This time they focused on the good things the church provides. If only general conference could be that refreshing! I didn't have space on my phone or else I would have recorded it. Someone out there probably did I hope.

[Snowdrop]

AZflyer, you are a brace soul. I am sure that many more people appreciated and felt your question than were able to tell you about it. Keep fighting the good fight. You earned some crazy amounts of respect from me.

[azflyer]

I can confirm! I saw and heard AZ flyer with my own eyes and ears.

Thanks so much for summarizing RR.

Well done, Azflyer. I really appreciate the incisive question that you posed. It sounds like the apostles have already given the best answers they possibly can. It's simply a question of whether or not their answers resonate with each individual person, and putting any faith into apologetics seems unfruitful. The measured and crafted honesty of getting the same answer to this question posed yet again is more enlightening than LDS leaders may have foreseen. The real answer is that if you don't like official, apostolic answers then perhaps you should look elsewhere with your questions.

I think every person on this forum has already answered that for themselves. At this point it's simply strategies of how wards and families can function with people that don't accept what has been given.

I really like the way you wrote this. They really have given the best answers that are available out there. It is completely unrealistic to expect more detailed answers.

[Silver Girl]

Thanks for the update - I am heartened that there seems to be less backpedaling or resorting to telling people to pray & read the BoM than in recent years. There's still a way to go, but it does sound like the gap in the middle (between the Q-15 and members) might be narrowing a bit.

I admire you for asking an important question. I hope others do this as well, when opportunities present themselves.

[Mormorrisey]

Is it too early to nominate azflyer as NOM of the year?

In all seriousness, that took some serious stones. We all know the need to think about these kinds of questions, I know I had, but I've always bailed from actually asking them. You're my new hero. I've been to so many of these meetings where Q&A is just so milquetoast, I want to pull my ears out through my eyes - it sounds like this one had some drama in it, at least. I'm also pleased that people came up to you and congratulated you on asking the tough questions, including those in leadership, which was surprising; I do think that people have these questions, they just lack the lower appendages ask them in a public setting. Kudos to you, my friend. In fact, I've been very reluctant to share a story that happened to me recently on this board, and your bravery has inspired me. I will share it very soon.

In any event, I am somewhat pleased by the reaction your question received. While it does seem that you got a bit of a testy response, I am encouraged that the answer is, at least for Ballard, is to read the essays, and to encourage people to read them. Unfortunately he seems to be the ONLY apostle hitting this note, so until I hear some others chime in, he's the lone voice in the wilderness. While we all know the essays aren't the full story, they are a start, and to have people read them is a good thing. My problem with the essays is what some people make of them, including Sister M - they simply mark the checkmark, "I read the essays, so what are the apostates mad about?" without really reading them or trying to understand the issues. That way, they can just ignore them. I was pleased with a couple of friends of mine, who asked me about the essays, and they clearly had read them. They came to a different conclusion about the significance of this material than I did, but that's okay, because at least they made the effort to try and understand some of the issues I had, by READING them. I suspect the more people do this, it can build a dialogue. But if they are used just as inoculation, and a turning off of the cerebral cortex, they are not much use. So I remain a fan of the essays, but not their use as a weapon of shutting down conversation.

Thanks for the report, azflyer!!

[slk]

I commend you for putting yourself out there. I am sure you got people thinking and that is the main goal. I'm also sure a few there probably thought you were a nonbeliever but little do they know you are a genuine guy, trying to make it work and trying to make a difference. Good for you AZF!

[AllieOop]

“Hello, my name is [OK, I'm not really putting that in here], and I am from [somewhere] Arizona. I was very grateful that Elder Ballard started the meeting tonight by letting us know that this would be a candid meeting. I hope to be faithfully candid in the way I ask my question tonight. We live in the information age. The temple endowment ceremony, unfortunately, can be found on youtube. The church’s family search website shows that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy with several teenage girls. I have many friends and family members that have felt very hurt as they have come to learn this information.

Wow....that took such courage to stand and ask that question to an Apostle! And in front of your peers and fellow church members...amazing. Kudos and bravo!

I think what they DIDN'T say in response revealed more than what they DID say. No disputing that Joseph married young teens, no calling it an anti-Mormon lie. Just telling members to read about it in the essay. I imagine many may have been shocked with that response.

Great job!

[MoPag]

Is it too early to nominate azflyer as NOM of the year?

I second that NOMination!

[slk]

How many do you think were in attendance at just your Stake Center? Was it for adults only or were the youth invited?

[azflyer]

How many do you think were in attendance at just your Stake Center? Was it for adults only or were the youth invited?

Off the top of my head, I'd say there were between 600 and 800 people there, but that is a complete guess. The entire chapel, overflow, cultural hall and stage were completely packed.

This meeting was specifically for adults with children. The theme was how to raise children in this day and age.

[azflyer]

Is it too early to nominate azflyer as NOM of the year?

I second that NOMination!

You are both too kind. I am in somewhat of a unique situation compared to many people here, and my circumstances have emboldened me quite a bit.

There are so many people here that have gone through so much more than I have. I really have tremendous respect for all of you.

[azflyer]

Wow....that took such courage to stand and ask that question to an Apostle! And in front of your peers and fellow church members...amazing. Kudos and bravo!

I think what they DIDN'T say in response revealed more than what they DID say. No disputing that Joseph married young teens, no calling it an anti-Mormon lie. Just telling members to read about it in the essay. I imagine many may have been shocked with that response.

Great job!

My favorite part of elder Ballard's response was when he acknowledged that Joseph Smith engaged in polygamy. I think there are still members out there that don't believe that he did.

[AllieOop]

My favorite part of elder Ballard's response was when he acknowledged that Joseph Smith engaged in polygamy. I think there are still members out there that don't believe that he did.

Yes. I guarantee you that there were members there who didn't even know that Joseph lived polygamy (other than possibly a few random, older, poor widows whose husbands had been killed by the evil mobs), let alone that he married teenagers. I wonder how many went home and hopped on the internet. So again, good job!

[Not Buying It]

I just want to publicly say how very, very impressed I am with what you did! Great job!

[SunbeltRed]

AZFlyer -

Great job! And I am glad you are owning your Mormonism, we each travel on our own path and it sounds like you want to make Mormonism work for you. All support from my end.

Kudos again, it will be interesting to see how all this plays out over the next 5-10 years as active members continue to bring these issues up and more and more people realize they really don't have any good answers.

[well wandered]

After the meeting was over, I just wanted to run and hide. I felt that everyone was mad at me for some reason for bringing up a taboo topic. I just wanted to crawl under the pew and hide from everyone. I was very happy to see that two people in the congregation came over to me to specifically thank me for asking that question. I could tell that the question I asked resonated with them, and they were glad that I asked it. A member of our stake presidency also came over to talk to me. He said he thought it was a great question, and he was very happy that I asked it. These three people really helped to lift my spirits and help me feel better.

My wife and I went out to dinner after the meeting, and once I turned my phone on, I saw that I had multiple messages from friends that I haven't seen in a along time reaching out to me to thank me for asking the question. One friend that was in a satellite building pulled out his phone and took a picture of the projector screen in the building he was in and sent it to me.

More than anything, I want you all to know that you are not alone in having questions about the church. These questions are legitimate and real. There are many people out there that you think are TBM that also have these same questions. We are all doing our best one way or another to get through these crazy lives that we have. I love all of you and am so grateful for the friendship that I've felt from many of you. I want to continue my faith journey with the LDS church. My reasons for doing this are deep and complex.

AZflyer - out

Wow. This took guts. There isn't enough respect in the world for what this took.

If you hadn't asked it, you'd probably be living with the other uncomfortable feeling of regretting it and wishing you had. Nothing about this is easy.

..Wow.

[azflyer]

If you hadn't asked it, you'd probably be living with the other uncomfortable feeling of regretting it and wishing you had. Nothing about this is easy.

..Wow.

Thanks so much for sharing this. I'm sitting in the back of my gospel doctrine class right now wondering if I did the right thing. I've got a few strange looks at church today. I'm not sure if it's just me, or if people are really looking at me funny.

But you are right. I would have looked back and regretted not saying it. Thank you so much for your support.

[MerrieMiss]

I'll just echo everyone here: Good job. All of us - the believing, the disaffected, the leadership - need more authentic questions asked at these meetings.

[The Beast]

Add mine to the list of respectful and thankful that you asked. Church leadership needs to be held accountable and questions like yours are another step toward doing so. The more times we can get a GA encouraging the membership to read the essays the better. I quit attending over a year ago and I am "out" to my family. I have no desire to bring the church down, but I do want to see full transparency and honesty, and in my mind, that would include acknowledging that we really don't know a whole lot of stuff we've claimed over the years.