NOM in 2017?

[Its_Complicated]

I know, back in the day, New Order Mormonism was a lifestyle in the church.. See below.

New Order Mormons are those who no longer believe some (or much) of the dogma or doctrines of the LDS Church, but who want to maintain membership for cultural, social, or even spiritual reasons. New Order Mormons recognize both good and bad in the Church, and have determined that the Church does not have to be perfect in order to remain useful. New Order Mormons seek the middle way to be Mormon

Things have changed a bit over the last 3 years or so in regards to membership and proclamations. Does the above statement still speaks today of New Order Mormons? Do they still exist? There are tons of "middle way" labels people use these days, is NOM one of them?

NOM used to be a term I used to describe myself but it was hard to explain to people. I now use the term Borderland Mormon because I sit on those lines inbetween being out of the church and be in. I supplement my experiences by finding like minded people in real life (mostly Post Mormon groups, even though I am not Post Mormon), Community of Christ (for some worship experiences) and even Fellowship Organizations that have other ways of looking at doctrine, leadership and personal relationships with God. I would imagine others on this board may do the same thing.

This message board is a good start to be as good or better than the old place. My question is, whoever runs this place, is this a message board for folks to come and be faithful middlewayers (whatever title you choose to call yourself)? Are we a Post Mormon group? Are we going to try to bring back the term NOM and make it into some kind of lifestyle? How known is the term NOM in heavy LDS areas?

Looking forward to your responses!

[Give It Time]

Yesterday, someone described me as having strong opinions. I nodded my head at that. I don't think my opinions are any stronger or weaker than any other, even or especially a TBM. Now, this person is afraid to talk to me because of my strong opinions, even though I've shared exactly one with with this person through a testimony I bore during F&T meeting. That opinion was being kind was of tantamount importance. So, any other strong opinions this person believes I hold are a matter of conjecture or gossip.

We got talking and I told this person that I thought it would be fun if people would actually ask me if I held a certain opinion. I told this person I absolutely refused to discuss anything I believed would be painful for the hearer. I would simply confirm, laugh at the ridiculousness of the assumption or say my children don't even know the answer to that and I won't answer that for you until I answer for them--if they ever want to know.

Anyway, this person smiled a little uncomfortably at my invitation. However, I thought the definition of me was interesting and a compliment and it was one where I felt I could open the door for conversation.

[Ghost]

The old NOM definition fits me perfectly, though it's not a term I can imagine ever using in real life.

I don't know that there is a great label to use when talking to people not already familiar with such things, but I have occasionally referred to myself as Mormon but heterodox without really elaborating.

[Red Ryder]

This is a great topic with multiple questions to approach. First, I think it's important to say that I don't think any one person really runs this place. It's been nearly self regulated with relatively few issues and a locked thread or two. Not much moderator intervention has been needed. This was by design and there certainly isn't an agenda or brand to protect. Having said that, I believe the new board was created out of necessity to reconnect with each other and rebuild the feel and community of the old board. A place to call home again. Other forums existed but it just wasn't the same.

So what does all of this mean?

Self Identification
In Mormonism, it's black or white. Member or non member. Active or inactive. Worthy or unworthy. NOM was originally a middle way lifestyle. Over time, the middle way got smaller and smaller and has essentially evaporated. It's not a long term solution but has become a stepping stone on the way out of the church. A place where we help each other soften the blow of disaffection. It took a long time to transition because nobody was talking about the issues in the public forum. There was a true need for anonymity behind an avatar and screen name. Now that the essays are font and center, the church has agree there are issues and has essentially said, "So what?" People are no longer afraid to speak up about the issues and conversations occur in public Facebook comments.

Former Believer with a TBM Spouse
I think most of us on the board fit into this label than the original intent of NOM and the middle way. We have an instant bond and a vent for communicating the nuances of living with garment wearing spouses who believe we are deceived by Satan. Where else can you find such community on the internet?

NOM in 2017?
As far as I'm concerned, we can make NOM 2.0 anything we want. Early on I suggested adding the relationship forum for a place to discuss mixed faith marriages. It hasn't really taken off as I had hoped probably because there is a lot of cross coverage with the support forum.

I hope that everyone feels comfortable enough to make suggestions to better the board. If the tone is off and we've become too rowdy and irreverent then speak up and say so. I like to believe that we as a group and community here can have these discussions. There are people here who are holding on to pieces of their faith and trying to make it work. We support them and encourage them because at some point we were them! There are people here who want to metaphorically burn the church to the ground. We support them because we've been there too.

So perhaps "Surviving Mormonism" is the best label that captures the fluidity of our church experiences and different points of progress along the way. Who knows, maybe one day Mormonism will become so distant in our vocabularies and daily life that we won't need each other anymore. Of course, that's when friendship takes over and we've become "Friends with TBM Spouses".

[Hagoth]

Former Believer with a TBM Spouse
I think that captures a large portion of it. I agree that the meaning of New Order Mormon has drifted quite a bit from being a synonym for Liahona Mormon. It also includes former believers who value their community, non-believing children of believing parents,and pretty much anyone in the Mormon sphere of influence who is keeping one foot in Mormonism out of respect or sympathy for loved ones or for fear of consequences. My oldest son's personality if very different from my own and he is not a NOM by any means. Once he was done with the church he was outta here so fast it would make your head spin. How that affected us, his parents, was not a concern for him at all; that was our mess to clean up.

I am still attached to the church purely out of support of my wife and I a'm very open about that fact with anyone at church who cares to know. She has fully come to terms with my disbelief over that past five or six years and she recently told me that she doesn't care if I don't attend church anymore. But I will still go to church with her anyway simply because I value my marriage above everything and I know that she appreciates having me sit next to her, even if it's just a show of support. And that pretty much sums up the meaning of NOM for me these days...

...except for one more little thing.

As we all know, you can leave the church but you can't leave it alone any more than it will allow you to be left alone. For a lot of us NOM is also about disentangling our minds, morals, and worldviews from a lifetime of fundamentalist indoctrination. You either live in Mormonism's mental prison or you make a hobby of disassembling the grizzly and putting it back together as a teddy bear. I know some of you share my opinion that Mormonism is a lot more interesting from a former-believer perspective than it was from a force-fed participant perspective.

[AllieOop]

Self Identification
In Mormonism, it's black or white. Member or non member. Active or inactive. Worthy or unworthy. NOM was originally a middle way lifestyle. Over time, the middle way got smaller and smaller and has essentially evaporated. It's not a long term solution but has become a stepping stone on the way out of the church.

I loved your entire post, RR, but wanted to comment on a couple things.

What you state above is really applicable, IMO. I really do believe that being what the "definition" of a New Order Mormon is, is most often just one of the stages we pass through here. Many (maybe most?) are in that phase when they find this forum. I know that's where I was. The stage where you have discovered the truth, but you're terrified of being found out and you also feel all alone. But from my experience, most move on from this stage (if possible).

Are there some who can sustain being a NOM for a longer period of time? Of course and there are many who do or who have to (especially if their spouse is still a believer). But I think that we are all on a sort of continuum and very few of us are exactly in the same spot at the same time....we're all somewhere in between a 100% believer and someone who can leave and never look back. There's a lot of middle ground.

I'm honestly not one who like labels. But I understand why there is a need for some sort of a NOM definition (at least as a starting point). I know there is a real need for this board. I still feel like I'm in the middle even though I haven't attended church now for 6 or 7 years. I have 2 kids who are very active, so I am still going to be involved somewhat and trying to keep up with what is happening in the church.

So perhaps "Surviving Mormonism" is the best label that captures the fluidity of our church experiences and different points of progress along the way.

I like this. It really does describe how I feel about this board.

And, RR is right when he states that this board belongs to all of us. I happen to believe we have a really great group of people here. Members are considerate of each other and pretty much self regulate and I think that speaks highly of the caliber of people who have come here for help and support (and to offer help to others).

This is a great thread and discussion to have, thanks for starting it, Its_Complicated!






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[AzCommando]

Former Believer with a TBM Spouse

I think most of us on the board fit into this label than the original intent of NOM and the middle way. We have an instant bond and a vent for communicating the nuances of living with garment wearing spouses who believe we are deceived by Satan. Where else can you find such community on the internet.

[/quote]

Thanks Cowboy. That's Me.

[AllieOop]

First, I think it's important to say that I don't think any one person really runs this place. It's been nearly self regulated with relatively few issues and a locked thread or two. Not much moderator intervention has been needed.

Very true.

Now, if we could just find a way to get rid of those pesky Russians

[Red Ryder]

As we all know, you can leave the church but you can't leave it alone any more than it will allow you to be left alone. For a lot of us NOM is also about disentangling our minds, morals, and worldviews from a lifetime of fundamentalist indoctrination. You either live in Mormonism's mental prison or you make a hobby of disassembling the grizzly and putting it back together as a teddy bear. I know some of you share my opinion that Mormonism is a lot more interesting from a former-believer perspective than it was from a force-fed participant perspective.

I like this Hagoth! It's a strange hobby for sure.

Now, if we could just find a way to get rid of those pesky Russians

I'll talk to the Captain. I think there's an option to ask a question for verification. Like the old board where you had to name the angel on top of the temple. Maybe that will slow it down.

[MoPag]

For me, being NOM means understanding that COJCOLDS doesn't own Mormonism and doesn't own me. When we start to embrace out own individual spirituality (or lack there of), I think we realize how crazy it was to be forced/shamed into the "one and only true" spiritual mindset. So I think being NOM means finding YOUR unique way of dealing with your Mormonism.

As we all know, you can leave the church but you can't leave it alone any more than it will allow you to be left alone. For a lot of us NOM is also about disentangling our minds, morals, and worldviews from a lifetime of fundamentalist indoctrination. You either live in Mormonism's mental prison or you make a hobby of disassembling the grizzly and putting it back together as a teddy bear. I know some of you share my opinion that Mormonism is a lot more interesting from a former-believer perspective than it was from a force-fed participant perspective.

^^^ This is a big part of why I'm on NOM.

I also like to think of being NOM as kind of a secret calling. I think Culper said something about being a secret agent, or spy inside the church, in his intro post and it really stuck with me. We all know how the church works. We know how it uses and abuses people. But we can, in our own subtle, little ways, try to counteract that abuse in our wards and branches. We can ask question that make members think. We can be a still small voice that lets others know that they are not alone.

How known is the term NOM in heavy LDS areas?

I've only ever heard the term NOM on the bloggernacle. But I'm well outside the morridor. I think it would be nice to get the term NOM out there. I would be very lonely without you guys. And I know that there are many more people who could benefit from being a part of our ward family.

[AllieOop]

Now, if we could just find a way to get rid of those pesky Russians

I'll talk to the Captain. I think there's an option to ask a question for verification. Like the old board where you had to name the angel on top of the temple. Maybe that will slow it down.

Maybe ask, "Who is Fanny Alger?"

[Corsair]

I meet occasionally with people who are adamantly apostate. As snarky and irreverent as this board may get at times, it does not rise to the level of parties I have attended which featured vodka shots out of a sacrament tray and was preceded by a blasphemously hilarious parody of the LDS sacrament prayer. Surprisingly, that was not the most scandalous event of the evening. These folks have left the LDS church very loudly and a portion of their time is spent managing thorny relationships with the believers still connected to them.

A few of these apostates are former members of NOM 1.0 but all of them recognize the concept of NOM. On the reddit/r/exmormon forum the term "NOM" is used as a polite adjective for this spectrum of a middle way. It's often used to describe someone in transition before they turn completely to the apostate side.

I am OK with having NOM as both a transition state and a destination. Many of us know of some extremely thoughtful people that used to be on the NOM 1.0 board and made an elegant, conscious decision to leave completely because their own transition was done and they had no need to continue. I am additionally grateful for people that stick around in NOM to help others even though our transition is largely accomplished.

[moksha]

I think NOMs are the silent majority of the Church. Sure the tail is still wagging the dog, but the tail has both disciplinary power and the claim that it grants entrance to the Celestial Wing of Heaven. The tail is caught up with a continual flow of tithing coming down the ol' sphincter of revenue. Because of this, the tail will not be diligent in blocking the heavenly entry of the NOMs.

There is too much sham in the orthodoxy of Mormon legend to actually believe all that stuff. I mean, they only say they "know it to be true" at the Y in order to get the girls. Girls love a true knower. They look for the bulge in the knower's testimony and wish to opt for a big whopper. The guys will pad their whopper of a knowing story till it seems adequate. The trouble is that it is all hot air.

[Hagoth]

I've only ever heard the term NOM on the bloggernacle.

I'm looking forward to someday hearing derision of "so-called New Order Mormons" in general conference.

I wish you could come and hang out with some of us, MoPag.

[RubinHighlander]

Former believer with a former believing spouse but still on the books with lots of TBM family and friends.

So I've not had my name removed; honestly I don't think about it much. It's been about 1.5 years since the official resignation letter was sent to local leaders. The value of this form has multiple facets for me. I like to keep up on the issues because I have friends that are TBMs, some NOMs with TBM wives and those that are full on out. It's interesting to me from a social perspective and because I live behind the Zion curtain. I also lived it for 40+ years, so I suppose this helps me detox a bit.

Also, there are some very talented and intelligent folks posting here, without all the super toxic negativity you get on other forums. I just don't have time for them. I don't listen to many podcasts anymore, not a lot of interest in reading more books. I do like the little golden nuggets I come across here on NOM that still surprise me about things I never knew. Just when I think I've read or heard it all there's still things lurking in the history.

[Emower]

I love this board. Like others have expressed, I like the fact that everyone understands all the little nuances that go along with how I am feeling. I cant get that in any other place. I have to make a conscious effort to not allow myself to let my stream-of-consciousness leak out on the board, but it is nice to have a place where I can be understood.

I am going to have a hard time being the kind of NOM who tries to make a difference from the inside. You get shut down too quickly and harshly if you set one foot past the extremely subtle line. I am not an extremely subtle kind of person.

So perhaps "Surviving Mormonism" is the best label that captures the fluidity of our church experiences and different points of progress along the way.

I like this. It really does describe how I feel about this board.





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+1 for this. Surviving is pretty much how I feel right now. This board is a little like a piece of driftwood I am clinging to.

[GoodBoy]

New Order Mormons are those who no longer believe some (or much) of the dogma or doctrines of the LDS Church, but who want to maintain membership for cultural, social, or even spiritual reasons. New Order Mormons recognize both good and bad in the Church, and have determined that the Church does not have to be perfect in order to remain useful. New Order Mormons seek the middle way to be Mormon

This fits me. I don't think Mormonism is evil. I think Mormonism = every other religion you can find. I personally don't feel like fighting it for the same reasons I don't feel like going out to prove that Seventh Day Adventists are wrong. I don't mind being referred to as a Mormon, but I will often tell people I'm a non-believer. I do no longer attend church as of a few weeks ago, primarily because I think it is a waste of time and I would rather be doing other things. That, and it makes me crazy .

[MoPag]

I've only ever heard the term NOM on the bloggernacle.

I'm looking forward to someday hearing derision of "so-called New Order Mormons" in general conference.

I wish you could come and hang out with some of us, MoPag.

I wish I could hang out with you guys too!

I wonder what we would have to do to get on the COB's radar to the point that they feel they have to call us out at conference.

[Mormorrisey]

Reading this thread has been fascinating - I think it reflects our own challenges within Mormonism, whatever they may be, and "Surviving Mormonism" does have a great ring to it. What I have been grateful for, is that the original mandate of the board hasn't really pertained to me, but I always feel welcome to express my views. I think many here feel the same. I'm also horrible with titles, I think New Order Mormons just sounds really cool and I sing "True Faith" by New Order every time I think of this place. So there's that.

It's just neat to have a place where people can join in wherever they are along the continuum of faith, belief and transition, and generally can get along, despite our regional, theological and cultural differences. Gives me some faith in humanity, and for the love of all that is holy I could use some of that to soothe my black, cynical, apostate soul. I'm just enjoying the NOM journey, and I wouldn't change a blessed thing about this place.

And until the Bushmans', Givens' and Prices' say they've had enough and chuck all their apologetics into the woodpile, I don't think we'll be getting much of a shout-out in Conference.

[John G.]

I like the term New Order Mormon. It sounds cool! I wish NOM 2 would put the subtitle, "A New Hope," back up on this website.