Tithing blessings and magical thinking

[Hagoth]

A speaker in sacrament meeting today told a story that is familiar to all of us.

Her father was raised in a home with a family business and it often took a long time to get payment for their product after they shipped it. In one particularly long dry spell they were forced to decide between paying tithing or buying groceries. They chose to pay tithing and the very next day the much anticipated check appeared in the mailbox. Miracle.

The question I always ask myself when I hear these stories is what does the storyteller imagine would have happened had they not paid tithing. For the payment to arrive the next day it would have to have already been in the mail. Would nonpayment of tithing have caused the check to evaporate? Would it be fair to the person who honestly paying for services rendered to have their money not go where they intended it? Would God intentionally withhold honestly earned money from someone who deserved it?

It may sound like I'm judging this good folks so I will confess that I once told pretty much the exact same story in SM in the early days of my carreer, so I have to turn this question around on myself. Why did I think it was a miracle that my tax refund check arrived the day after I drained my bank account to pay tithing? Would I have been justified in expecting anything different? Why did I consider it a miracle that the normal order of the universe was not disrupted because I failed to give money to a particular accounting department at that particular time?

[Jinx]

Because you were raised that way, taught to see coincidence as magic. I told a story very much like that and my father said I strengthened his testimony. :p

I will bear my testimony that for the past three years my family has been paying ten percent of our income anonymously to various local charities. Our finances are stronger than ever, and when I see the good work that is done with my money I always smile. No magic, just benevolence.

[Corsair]

We don't hear the stories where financial hardship occurred despite paying tithing. These stories might show up when discussed soberly in PEC or among friends with commiseration. The blessings of tithing show up only as isolated anecdotes, not as statistical evidence.

[Silver Girl]

Ouch! I had to teach a lesson on tithing once; I flinched when it was assigned - and this was during my TBM days. I never cared for the enforced (through punishment) donation thing. Now that I know the truth - it's sinful. This church alone is a good argument for overhauling the tax code on non-profits.

[Silver Girl]

We don't hear the stories where financial hardship occurred despite paying tithing. These stories might show up when discussed soberly in PEC or among friends with commiseration. The blessings of tithing show up only as isolated anecdotes, not as statistical evidence.

Good point. Here's a spin on it - I know a bishop who required members to pay a tithe on the church welfare they got. I can't get my head around the math. He also told them to tithe before buying food. I guess he had good stats as far as the number of 'full tithe payers' in the congregation.

Ugh.

[DPRoberts]

At my most TBM I did not have a testimony of tithing, and would have said so out loud if asked. I did not perceive blessings nearly so much as I did the deprivation. For myself I could have lived with it, but not when I had a family that needed more than I could provide after paying my religious tax. I once asked a BP if the Malachi scripture was just prophetic hyperbole, since I had never felt that I was lacking "room enough to receive". He found that funny that I still had plenty of room to receive, but he clearly did not have to make the sacrifices I did. His kids all had music lessons, college savings funds, spent Christmas every year in Hawaii, etc. The injustice of a regressive religious tax was far too real for me.

I also noticed that SS tithing discussions tended to divide among economic lines between the well off and the less so. Magical thinking tended to take a material form for haves and a more spiritual form for the have nots.

One last vivid memory of tithing cognitive dissonance was reading a newspaper story where a bankruptcy trustee was trying to go after LDS Inc for tithing paid to the church when the businessman should have been paying creditors. Clearly the magic did not work.

I guess I am rambling somewhat but my point if I have one is that tithing played a big part in undoing my magical thinking.

[Mormorrisey]

We don't hear the stories where financial hardship occurred despite paying tithing. These stories might show up when discussed soberly in PEC or among friends with commiseration. The blessings of tithing show up only as isolated anecdotes, not as statistical evidence.

Good point. Here's a spin on it - I know a bishop who required members to pay a tithe on the church welfare they got. I can't get my head around the math. He also told them to tithe before buying food. I guess he had good stats as far as the number of 'full tithe payers' in the congregation.

Ugh.

I'd love to say that I wasn't one of those bishops, but the reality is, I was a d-bag in other ways. Like, encouraging people to pay their tithing, and then I would supply their food needs from the storehouse. I had no clue how people struggled to make their ends meet more than just supplying their groceries. The only good news, I'm pretty sure nobody took me up on my offer. Lots, lots of things I regret from those years. The good news is, I'm so far down on the list to be anything in leadership now, that I've moved to the apostate page. And I'm sure there is one.

[Just This Guy]

A speaker in sacrament meeting today told a story that is familiar to all of us.

Her father was raised in a home with a family business and it often took a long time to get payment for their product after they shipped it. In one particularly long dry spell they were forced to decide between paying tithing or buying groceries. They chose to pay tithing and the very next day the much anticipated check appeared in the mailbox. Miracle.

Taking a look at this from after the fact, By the time they made the decision to pay their tithing, it would not have made any difference when the check would have arrived. The story states that it was the next day, less than 24 hours, likely less than 18 hours between the time they made the decision and the time the mail was delivered. There is nothing that could have happened to change the outcome. The envelope was already in the mail bag for the postal carrier to go out for delivery the next day. Had they made the other decision, the post office would have reacted no different.

Really, the only way for the outcome to change would be fore some sort of divine intervention to stop the carrier from making their appointed round. At that point, it is now a punishment for the family for not paying tithing. There is nothing in the scriptures about punishments for not paying tithes, only the blessings. So for it to happen, god would have to be going back on the law of tithing.

So yeah, magical thinking at its finest. Logic need not enter here.

[Korihor]

My dad came to visit us for halloween (he lives in SLC, we live in PHX and he gets to ride airplanes for free) and stayed just one night. He went with us to take the little ones out for trick or treating. It's nice that my folks come infrequently for weekend visits, we always love to see them and our kids love it when Grandpa comes. My Dad loves visiting Phoenix, but he only shows up outside of the summer months.

We were talking and he commented that the Lord has truly blessed us and watched out for us since we left Utah.

I appreciate the kind thought. He is sincere. However, leaving Utah was part of the sequence that caused my shelf to break. Since being in PHX, I never paid $$$ to TSCC. I've almost stopped wearing G's entirely, occasionally enjoy adult beverages, and have been very open about my lack of confidence in the religion as a whole. Needless to say, he knows where I stand.

We don't fight about it, but it's obviously is hard for him. He tries to give kind reminders that I have reason to be thankful. I am thankful, but not to inconsequential corporate entities. I suppose it just surprises me because they still think this is "just a phase"

[Hagoth]

I also noticed that SS tithing discussions tended to divide among economic lines between the well off and the less so. Magical thinking tended to take a material form for haves and a more spiritual form for the have nots.

This is a fascinating observation, DPR. Wouldn't it be interesting if there was a way to document whether the Prosperity Gospel works better for people who have more money in the first place, particularly those from wealthy families who inherit, are set up in business, or are afforded costly educations by way of family money.

[John G.]

One last vivid memory of tithing cognitive dissonance was reading a newspaper story where a bankruptcy trustee was trying to go after LDS Inc for tithing paid to the church when the businessman should have been paying creditors. Clearly the magic did not work.

I guess I am rambling somewhat but my point if I have one is that tithing played a big part in undoing my magical thinking.

If I remember right, a few years ago (5-10 years) Orrin Hatch (or another Utah politician like Bob Bennett) got the IRS code changed so that someone could pay tithing while going through bankruptcy!.

Paying tithing during bankruptcy should raise two issues. The first is that the person is almost by definition stiffing his creditors to pay tithing. And the second is that if you're in bankruptcy the tithing magic obviously isn't working really great for you!

[RubinHighlander]

We don't hear the stories where financial hardship occurred despite paying tithing. These stories might show up when discussed soberly in PEC or among friends with commiseration. The blessings of tithing show up only as isolated anecdotes, not as statistical evidence.

I lived this one! Loyal tithe payer who was unemployed for a year and a half. Had some odd jobs here and there but basically blew through all our savings. Now, the mental gymnastics work like this: It was a test of my faith and I didn't starve to death. And, eventually employment came again, albeit at a lower income level. So that long suffering was a test and blessing came.

Here's the experiment I ran when I spent a year entertaining the thought the church was all BS. I didn't pay tithing and observed whether I was cursed for it. I dodged a big layoff, got a raise, got a bonus, life actually seemed much better that year.

Statistically, even the power of prayer is shown to have zero effect on the outcome of things. It might make folks feel better, but attributing events in our lives to some good or evil metaphysical force makes no real difference in outcomes. People could use that belief in magic or superstition to alter the path in their lives through better choices, but personally I feel much better making those choices without the angel and devil on my shoulders.

I've really enjoyed these videos by Theramintrees; they have given me so much clarity, helping me on my exit out of Mormonism as I reflect on a half a lifetime, plugged into the Matrix. They do a great job explaining the confirmation bias by those with strong dogma or belief systems in God, Gods and Pseudoscience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YQfsyK9ois

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgN7a_vdIIc

[John G.]

Here's the experiment I ran when I spent a year entertaining the thought the church was all BS. I didn't pay tithing and observed whether I was cursed for it. I dodged a big layoff, got a raise, got a bonus, life actually seemed much better that year.

Of course, even without the raise and bonus it's scientifically provable that you will be materially better off if you don't pay tithing. You will be guaranteed to have 10% more of your income if you don't pay tithing. And 10% is a lot of money relative to a person's income.

I've been putting more or less 10% of my income into my retirement account and, over the years, with inflation and compounded investment gains, it has grown into a pretty good amount of money relative to my standard of living. (As it would with anybody who saves 10% of their income over a good chunk of time). I've been truly blessed indeed!

[Zack Tacorin Dos]

Why did I think it was a miracle that my tax refund check arrived the day after I drained my bank account to pay tithing?

Short answer: Confirmation bias.

Zack

[GoodBoy]

The studies that show that people make most of their decisions based on emotion, and then they use their rational brain to find reasoning to support what they want to believe has really changed the way I see people. It explains why apologists do what they do, why people are not flexible in their political or religious opinions, and why good people believe crazy stuff. She looked for and finally found a reason to support her pre-existing belief.

[MoPag]

Had they made the other decision, the post office would have reacted no different.

Really, the only way for the outcome to change would be fore some sort of divine intervention to stop the carrier from making their appointed round. At that point, it is now a punishment for the family for not paying tithing. There is nothing in the scriptures about punishments for not paying tithes, only the blessings. So for it to happen, god would have to be going back on the law of tithing.

So yeah, magical thinking at its finest. Logic need not enter here.

And then he should totally bear his testimony about NOT paying tithing.

Good afternoon brothers and sisters, I would like to bear my testimony about tithing. I decided not to pay my tithing and then the next day I received some unexpected money in the mail. I am so humbled by the blessings I have received. I still have my tithing money and this magical mail money too!

#Blessed!

Amen

[Emower]

what does the storyteller imagine would have happened had they not paid tithing.

I used to think about that. My previous way of answering that question is kind of embarrassing. God knows everything even before it happens. He knew that you were going to pay your tithing and organized events so that the check would show up on time. If you weren't going to have paid tithing, he would have organized stuff so that it didn't show up on time. Now, this way of thinking introduces a can of worms theology wise, but i just pushed some of those thoughts away as faithless.

My curiosity about the churches teachings started from thinking about the nature of God and how our doctrine actually does not teach about a God I am comfortable with when you really look at the ramifications of Mormon doctrine.

[MalcolmVillager]

The parts of all religion that lose me are getting bleseed for obedience and cursed for disobedience.

Don't get me wrong, I can buy into karma, or what goes around comes around, but thus is life. I don't believe in fate, but it randomness. We attribute happenstance to consequence due to confirmation bias.

Predictable consequences or playing the odds is a different things all together. If I don't sleep around I won't get VD, won't have unwanted pregnancies, won't piss off DW, won't give another woman leverage for blackmail, etc... I don't believe there is a capricious God attaching whimsical results to every situation. Keeping commitments to others and not destroying confidences is not karma or judgment.

The mere fact that good people who pay tithing are poor, inhappy, unhealthy, or otherwise living undesirable lives and bad people who don't pay tithing are happy, rich, healthy, and living a charmed life shows that it doesn't work that way. Even church leaders will tell you this, all the while they imply that you will be blessed.

Dangling rewards is a bunch of crap. That is what I do for my kids to encourage good behavior. It is the operant conditioning skinner box of parenting. We mold our kids where possible with aversion and reward. GOD does not work that way (if there is such a being or council or power).

Pay tithing if, and how, and to what you may choose, but not for promised blessings that will come in His time and way, in this life or the next, but for the immediate and predictable outcome. Did you feed the hungry or clothe the naked? Not did you build a beautiful building where young people are manipulated and coerced into covenants they knew nothing about.

[moksha]

Wouldn't it be interesting if there was a way to document whether the Prosperity Gospel works better for people who have more money in the first place, particularly those from wealthy families who inherit, are set up in business, or are afforded costly educations by way of family money.

Someone intent on promoting the Prosperity Gospel in order to fill their coffers really doesn't care if it actually works, they will still present stories of how it did work and never mention all the times that it failed to work. Receiving the tithing rather than its efficacy is the true bottom line.

The honest approach is to state the obvious: We need money to either stay in business or expand. Seeking money with the promised "hope" of a miracle or an increased return on an investment is like a Celestial game of craps with unloaded dice. The odds are against you.

[fh451]

I also noticed that SS tithing discussions tended to divide among economic lines between the well off and the less so. Magical thinking tended to take a material form for haves and a more spiritual form for the have nots.

Very interesting, but I suppose not terribly surprising on further reflection. What I've observed in an area with some moderately wealthy folks in the vicinity is that tithing serves to assuage the "wealth guilt." As long as they're paying their tithing, it's OK to be rich! And I've heard them say they want to continue to get more rich so they can give more to the church. Yup, it's all about the church.

fh451