Leadership Meeting Leak

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Linked
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Leadership Meeting Leak

Post by Linked » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:37 pm

New leaks here from a priesthood leadership conference attended by several apostles in Layton, Utah: https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/0 ... -02-15.pdf

The talks were pretty tame, but the Q&A is hard to read. My least favorite part shown below.
(emphasis added)Q. How can a bishop help counsel a couple whose husband is entering a realm of agnosticism?

A. Elder Perry: That is a real challenge and thank goodness you are a judge in Israel. This is the most
insidious thing that could ever happen.
Divorce never solves anything. Do anything you can to save a
marriage. Hopefully someone in the quorum can step in and help rescue. This is one great reason we need
to build the quorums. An Elders Quorum president and a whole quorum could step in and help in these
situations. Also teach in your quorums the importance of honoring women. Get the quorum to make contact
with him. He needs to know the full consequences of divorce, supporting his family, his responsibility as a
father, and the best interest of the children. Explain the evils of divorce and how they can never be corrected
in this life, and perhaps in the life to come.
That is a hurtful statement. And those suggestions are totally useless. I liked Tom Perry, I was friends with his grandkids growing up, but this is just bad advice and shows a deep lack of understanding.

There are some really awful comments regarding LGBTQ+ stuff too.:
Q. How do you help a young man or young woman who comes in and says "I think that I'm gay"?

A. Elder Perry: Give them association with manly things, strong men that represent the ideal of
relationships, a man who is vigorous and knows the power he holds.
Elder Clarke: Teach them the importance of remaining worthy. If they are worthy, they are acceptable
before God, and they should be acceptable before you.
Q. How to you handle a temple recommend interview with individuals who claim to support the brethren
but the individual is clearly supportive of issues that are against the teachings of the prophet such as same sex
marriage?

A. Elder Perry: This is difficult for many people, as they are sympathetic to a loved one who struggles. I
do not believe they are born with it. It is a temptation like any other. As long as they keep their support of
that loved one within their family, leave it up to them. Elder Tanner taught us how to ask questions in the
temple recommend interview. Ask them the questions and if necessary they will incriminate themselves.
Put the burden on them. They have to come forward and if we ask the questions the right way I think they
will. Say to them "now on this recommend there are three signatures, the first will be yours. As a witness
in front of these other witness and God himself, if you feel comfortable putting your name on this
recommend then we will join in recommending yon as worthy to enter the House of the Lord. The laws of
marriage will not change. Homosexual marriages will always be sin in the eyes of the Lord and they will
be judged accordingly for living that way.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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oliver_denom
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Re: Leadership Meeting Leak

Post by oliver_denom » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:18 pm

At least he was up front with the emotional manipulation which occurs during temple recommends. I completely concur, that the primary purpose of those interviews is to guilt people into incriminating themselves.

But for the first one about agnosticism...why is divorce even a topic? I don't see any context for it either before or after this question. It's like "Oh, you're agnostic...well I would strongly suggest against your divorce plans." WTF? Who said anything about divorce?
“You want to know something? We are still in the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages--they haven't ended yet.” - Vonnegut

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shadow
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Re: Leadership Meeting Leak

Post by shadow » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:20 pm

oliver_denom wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:18 pm
At least he was up front with the emotional manipulation which occurs during temple recommends. I completely concur, that the primary purpose of those interviews is to guilt people into incriminating themselves.

But for the first one about agnosticism...why is divorce even a topic? I don't see any context for it either before or after this question. It's like "Oh, you're agnostic...well I would strongly suggest against your divorce plans." WTF? Who said anything about divorce?
That really threw me, too. They should come check out this board. You could probably find a few here within "the realm of agnosticism" who are very much trying to avoid divorce.
"Healing is impossible in loneliness; it is the opposite of loneliness. Conviviality is healing. To be healed we must come with all the other creates to the feast of Creation." --Wendell Berry

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wtfluff
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Re: Leadership Meeting Leak

Post by wtfluff » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:43 pm

oliver_denom wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:18 pm
But for the first one about agnosticism...why is divorce even a topic? I don't see any context for it either before or after this question. It's like "Oh, you're agnostic...well I would strongly suggest against your divorce plans." WTF? Who said anything about divorce?
I actually like that he encouraged NOT divorcing over agnosticism (if he even knows what agnosticism is. It kind of seems that way; Since his answer has NOTHING to do with the question.)

But... The ending of that "answer" is still plain old fear-mongering...
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Who Cares If One More Light Goes Out?

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: Leadership Meeting Leak

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:01 pm

The nature of the questions is a good reflection on what is going on in the stakes these days. I thought the question about healings and whether the Lord would not extend the life of someone living below their privilege was interesting.

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mooseman
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Re: Leadership Meeting Leak

Post by mooseman » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:22 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:43 pm
oliver_denom wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:18 pm
But for the first one about agnosticism...why is divorce even a topic? I don't see any context for it either before or after this question. It's like "Oh, you're agnostic...well I would strongly suggest against your divorce plans." WTF? Who said anything about divorce?
I actually like that he encouraged NOT divorcing over agnosticism (if he even knows what agnosticism is. It kind of seems that way; Since his answer has NOTHING to do with the question.)

But... The ending of that "answer" is still plain old fear-mongering...
Idk, seems still damaging. Your becoming agonist? Well honor your wife and remember divorce is terrible...it doesn't sound like he's saying dont divorce.hi. over it, rather make sure he understands follow his wife and believe, or else.
It's frustrating to see the last resort in a discussion of facts be: I disregard those facts because of my faith. Why even talk about facts if the last resort is to put faith above all facts that are contrary to your faith?

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Leadership Meeting Leak

Post by Rob4Hope » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:47 pm

Linked wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:37 pm
A. Elder Perry: This is difficult for many people, as they are sympathetic to a loved one who struggles. I
do not believe they are born with it. It is a temptation like any other.

As long as they keep their support ofthat loved one within their family, leave it up to them. Elder Tanner taught us how to
ask questions in the temple recommend interview. Ask them the questions and if necessary they will incriminate themselves.
Put the burden on them. They have to come forward and if we ask the questions the right way I think they
will. Say to them "now on this recommend there are three signatures, the first will be yours. As a witness
in front of these other witness and God himself, if you feel comfortable putting your name on this
recommend then we will join in recommending yon as worthy to enter the House of the Lord. The laws of
marriage will not change. Homosexual marriages will always be sin in the eyes of the Lord and they will
be judged accordingly for living that way.

Really?

REALLY?

Has Elder Perry ever seen anyone soul weep, contemplate and consider suicide, and not have a memory their whole life of feeling anything different?

Wait...he said: "I do not believe they are born with it."

ELDER PERRY!!!!....You are a prophet, seer, and revealator. I'm sure you have had your wife anoint your feet as your "calling and election was made sure." You are entitled to the Heaven's Opening to you!

WAKE THE "EFF" UP MAN!!!!! This is NOT ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK! THIS IS NOT ABOUT SPECULATION!

You are an example of someone who is absolutely an abuser of power.

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wtfluff
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Re: Leadership Meeting Leak

Post by wtfluff » Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:11 pm

mooseman wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:22 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:43 pm
oliver_denom wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:18 pm
But for the first one about agnosticism...why is divorce even a topic? I don't see any context for it either before or after this question. It's like "Oh, you're agnostic...well I would strongly suggest against your divorce plans." WTF? Who said anything about divorce?
I actually like that he encouraged NOT divorcing over agnosticism (if he even knows what agnosticism is. It kind of seems that way; Since his answer has NOTHING to do with the question.)

But... The ending of that "answer" is still plain old fear-mongering...
Idk, seems still damaging. Your becoming agonist? Well honor your wife and remember divorce is terrible...it doesn't sound like he's saying dont divorce.hi. over it, rather make sure he understands follow his wife and believe, or else.

Yep, as I said in the last sentence of my statement, though PART of the section seems a bit positive, overall it's really just meant to scare the agnostic hubby back to believing...
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Who Cares If One More Light Goes Out?

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2bizE
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Re: Leadership Meeting Leak

Post by 2bizE » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:54 pm

I saw this and found it rather boring. These guys are just pulling answers out of their a$$es. There is no evidence-based knowledge ever shared or know by these clowns.
Most of their regular meetings are probably comparable to the monthly DMV staff meeting.
~2bizE

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Hagoth
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Re: Leadership Meeting Leak

Post by Hagoth » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:20 pm

2bizE wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:54 pm
I saw this and found it rather boring. These guys are just pulling answers out of their a$$es. There is no evidence-based knowledge ever shared or know by these clowns.
And that's exactly why this stuff is so dangerous. A Prophet Seer and Revelator and apostle of Jesus Christ spews this crap and people take is as marching orders. People get hurt because of stupid, thoughtless a$$ derived statements like these.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

ulmite
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Re: Leadership Meeting Leak

Post by ulmite » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:33 pm

Q. What are some of the problems we are seeing with missionaries and how can we help prepare them?
ElderClarke wrote:Have the bishop get frank and ask specific questions to get details now
That right there explains a LOT of the inappropriate nonsense going on behind those closed doors. Creepy.

platapus
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Re: Leadership Meeting Leak

Post by platapus » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:22 pm

On the issue of religious freedom E. Perry responded...

"Unfortunately the Supreme Court is listening to the voice of the people through the administration that is currently in place". Of course 2014 (when this was stated) was the Obama administration. The church doesn't take sides in politics? BS.

P.S reading on in his statement it appears that he thinks courts should act by the voice of majority of the people. This goes against the ideas of "rule of law". The supreme court should act on the law not whatever most people want.

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Re: Leadership Meeting Leak

Post by blazerb » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:13 am

I was bothered by this question:
How should you address a same-sex couple in a Sacrament Meeting who are showing inappropriate affection?
At no time does anyone define "inappropriate affection." What if a man has his arm around another man? What if two women are holding hands? Are these inappropriate? The answer goes on with fear-mongering about religious freedom. It also says this:
As local leaders you have a fine line to walk between dictating and teaching the doctrine so that there will be a revival of lay members stepping up to fight for God's cause. So that people in important positions and courts will see that the majority voice of the people will always be in favor of the Lord.
He should look at the latest polls that show a majority of people clearly support same-sex marriage. I guess destructions are coming. That would be the only way to change this now.

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Hagoth
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Re: Leadership Meeting Leak

Post by Hagoth » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:39 am

blazerb wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:13 am
At no time does anyone define "inappropriate affection." What if a man has his arm around another man? What if two women are holding hands? Are these inappropriate?
In the church's various attempts to appear openminded they admit that there really are gay people but that, gosh darn it, the same rules of chastity apply to them as anyone else. So how should bishops deal with unmarried hetero couples displaying similar acts of affectiong in sacrament meeting?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: Leadership Meeting Leak

Post by wtfluff » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:25 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:39 am
blazerb wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:13 am
At no time does anyone define "inappropriate affection." What if a man has his arm around another man? What if two women are holding hands? Are these inappropriate?
In the church's various attempts to appear openminded they admit that there really are gay people but that, gosh darn it, the same rules of chastity apply to them as anyone else. So how should bishops deal with unmarried hetero couples displaying similar acts of affectiong in sacrament meeting?
Let's be honest here: The definition of "inappropriate affection" for a same-sex couple in a LDS-Inc. "church" meeting would be ANY AFFECTION AT ALL.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Who Cares If One More Light Goes Out?

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Hagoth
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Re: Leadership Meeting Leak

Post by Hagoth » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:25 am

wtfluff wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:25 am
Let's be honest here: The definition of "inappropriate affection" for a same-sex couple in a LDS-Inc. "church" meeting would be ANY AFFECTION AT ALL.
Correct, and if they are sincere about only expecting gay people to conform to the same laws of chastity as straight people they need to start cracking down on unmarried straight couples demonstrating ANY AFFECTION AT ALL. It's only fair.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: Leadership Meeting Leak

Post by Corsair » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:36 pm

I also liked Elder Perry and it made me wince to see responses that simply don't give me any confidence in leadership going forward. It's not that I'm worried about my own ongoing experiences in the church. There is so little damage that the church could apply to me, after all. But this attitude will be the basis for leadership over the next 20 years and a lot of bright faced teenagers and children have a painful confrontation in their future because of this attitude.

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Brent
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Re: Leadership Meeting Leak

Post by Brent » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:30 pm

The advice Elder Perry gives is soooooo 1960.

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wtfluff
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Re: Leadership Meeting Leak

Post by wtfluff » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:50 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:25 am
It's only fair.
Fairness? Equality?

Ha! Not in the religion I was born into. (Unfortunately.)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Who Cares If One More Light Goes Out?

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PalmSprings
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Re: Leadership Meeting Leak

Post by PalmSprings » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:33 am

(emphasis added)Q. How can a bishop help counsel a couple whose husband is entering a realm of agnosticism?

A. Elder Perry: That is a real challenge and thank goodness you are a judge in Israel. This is the most
insidious thing that could ever happen.
What about child abuse?
Divorce never solves anything.
Wanna bet??
Do anything you can to save a marriage. Hopefully someone in the quorum can step in and help rescue. This is one great reason we need
to build the quorums. An Elders Quorum president and a whole quorum could step in and help in these
situations.
Step in and rescue or get involved and muddy the waters until they become overly toxic?
Also teach in your quorums the importance of honoring women.
Keeping them trapped in an abusive relationship is really going to solve things :roll: (Or Visa Versa, men are abused in relationships too)
Get the quorum to make contact with him. He needs to know the full consequences of divorce, supporting his family, his responsibility as a
father, and the best interest of the children.
What if the best interest of the children would be leaving a toxic environment created by parents who are constantly arguing and fighting?
Explain the evils of divorce and how they can never be corrected in this life, and perhaps in the life to come.
Fear and guilt is THE LAST thing a struggling couple need to hear. My god man, is Perry even sane??

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