New John Gee book about the Book of Abraham

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Hagoth
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New John Gee book about the Book of Abraham

Post by Hagoth » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:29 am

FAIRMormon promises: "It goes into enough depth that several of the arguments against the Book of Abraham fall apart and new ideas are introduced. Don’t take my word for it. Here are two book reviews on the book."

Here are a couple of FAIRMormon blogs about it.

https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2017/10 ... ok-abraham

https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2017/10 ... -abraham-2

Is anybody familiar with it? Did the arguments "fall apart?"
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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deacon blues
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Re: New John Gee book about the Book of Abraham

Post by deacon blues » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:01 am

I googled it on Amazon. The only review listed is the FAIR review you listed above. It's brand spanking new. I am leary of spending money on it, but it may soon turn up in the local library.
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Emower
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Re: New John Gee book about the Book of Abraham

Post by Emower » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:13 pm

Sounds like it may just obfuscate the issue by overwhelming the reader with too much information to accurately synthesize.

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Rob4Hope
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Re: New John Gee book about the Book of Abraham

Post by Rob4Hope » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:53 pm

I just read half of the first review posted above. It is filled with the same stuff. There is consistent denial that any surviving fragments are where the real BoA came from. And, the review, the small part I read, even points out an inconsistency concerning other material, as well as a lack of footnotes. It appears light on the documentation?

I remember reading D. Michael Quinn's book on magic. DANG!....over half the book consisted of EXTREMELY DETAILED documentation. THAT is a book to be reckoned with! This book touts to be an answer?....to put people's fears to rest?

Its got a target audience, and that target is NOT scholarly, IMHO.

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Corsair
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Re: New John Gee book about the Book of Abraham

Post by Corsair » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:14 pm

It's kind of annoying that this is yet another book trying to show some legitimacy to the Book of Abraham where there is so little to show for it. I'm not going to read this book. I am far beyond needing to justify my lack of belief.

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moksha
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Re: New John Gee book about the Book of Abraham

Post by moksha » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:05 pm

I suspect this book gives a layered diagram of the communication matrix found in the seerstone, which enabled Joseph to bypass the 1st Century AD funerary text and garner the Book of Abraham information straight from the ringworld circling around Kolob. This new work by John Gee will be a game changer that will be touted at the FAIRMormon Conference held in Levan, Utah for years to come.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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RubinHighlander
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Re: New John Gee book about the Book of Abraham

Post by RubinHighlander » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:15 pm

Corsair wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:14 pm
It's kind of annoying that this is yet another book trying to show some legitimacy to the Book of Abraham where there is so little to show for it. I'm not going to read this book. I am far beyond needing to justify my lack of belief.
+1

The basic apologist arguments boil down to discrediting the funeral scrolls as the actual translated source material, that the scrolls were just one of several things that "inspired" JS to write the BofA. The problem with that is the BoA can't be used to substantiate the BOM or JS' translation skills. It's just like the stone in the hat; he didn't actually use the plates, he was just inspired that they were sitting there next to him. It's enough gray area that neither side has a smoking gun and can make arguments for eternity. It's just like attributing healing to priesthood blessings and attributing not being healed to being tested. In the TBM mind there's an answer for everything, just have faith and follow your leaders.

For me the BoA is just one of so many lose threads in a whole unraveled tapestry of untruths and BS.
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Emower
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Re: New John Gee book about the Book of Abraham

Post by Emower » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:08 pm

RubinHighlander wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:15 pm
Corsair wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:14 pm
It's kind of annoying that this is yet another book trying to show some legitimacy to the Book of Abraham where there is so little to show for it. I'm not going to read this book. I am far beyond needing to justify my lack of belief.
+1

The basic apologist arguments boil down to discrediting the funeral scrolls as the actual translated source material, that the scrolls were just one of several things that "inspired" JS to write the BofA. The problem with that is the BoA can't be used to substantiate the BOM or JS' translation skills. It's just like the stone in the hat; he didn't actually use the plates, he was just inspired that they were sitting there next to him. It's enough gray area that neither side has a smoking gun and can make arguments for eternity. It's just like attributing healing to priesthood blessings and attributing not being healed to being tested. In the TBM mind there's an answer for everything, just have faith and follow your leaders.

For me the BoA is just one of so many lose threads in a whole unraveled tapestry of untruths and BS.
There is still the facsimiles though.

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RubinHighlander
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Re: New John Gee book about the Book of Abraham

Post by RubinHighlander » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:33 am

Emower wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:08 pm
There is still the facsimiles though.
Good point Emower. For me that's enough smoke, but I think for a lot of TBM apologists, you could show them gold plates that proved JS made them or had them made, just like the Kinderhook plates, but they would still come up with a plethora of things to explain it away and support their distorted view of the authenticity.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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Hagoth
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Re: New John Gee book about the Book of Abraham

Post by Hagoth » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:21 am

RubinHighlander wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:33 am
Emower wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:08 pm
There is still the facsimiles though.
Good point Emower. For me that's enough smoke, but I think for a lot of TBM apologists, you could show them gold plates that proved JS made them or had them made, just like the Kinderhook plates, but they would still come up with a plethora of things to explain it away and support their distorted view of the authenticity.
And don't forget the Book of Joseph. We have that papyrus and there's no claim of a lost scroll for that one.

Unless John Gee has made some amazing new discovery, this book will just be more of the same stuff we've seen, and if he has made an amazing new discovery I would prefer to read about it from other, non-Mormon Egyptologists who can give an unbiased assessment.

I'm still of the opinion that the Book of Abraham and facsimiles are indeed a smoking gun. Any critical assessment of the documents and the relative writings of the time leads logically to the conclusion that Joseph Smith made it up. There are NO non-Mormon scholars who believe it.

The reason things like this book keep coming out is that the obvious answer is the only answer that we are not allowed to accept, so we need to keep piling on as many diversions and parallelisms as necessary to keep the ball in the air.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Emower
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Re: New John Gee book about the Book of Abraham

Post by Emower » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:03 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:21 am
And don't forget the Book of Joseph. We have that papyrus and there's no claim of a lost scroll for that one.
I feel like I should know about the papyrus to the book of Joseph, but this isnt ringing a bell.

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Hagoth
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Re: New John Gee book about the Book of Abraham

Post by Hagoth » Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:35 am

Joseph identified the papyri as consisting of both the books of Abraham and Joseph in Egypt. The church owns both but no one ever talks about the BoJ. Spoiler: it has all the same problems as the BoA.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Hermey
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Re: New John Gee book about the Book of Abraham

Post by Hermey » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:18 pm

I just couldn't resist....


Image

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deacon blues
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Re: New John Gee book about the Book of Abraham

Post by deacon blues » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:21 pm

I'm going to say I think Joseph really believed he was translating. How he convinced himself of that is a bit of a mystery, unless you read Emma's book. The whole family saw and heard dreams and visions, and regarded them as Interchangeable. Google: shaman.

Or maybe the devil just made him do it.

But I could be wrong.
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Emower
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Re: New John Gee book about the Book of Abraham

Post by Emower » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:55 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:35 am
Joseph identified the papyri as consisting of both the books of Abraham and Joseph in Egypt. The church owns both but no one ever talks about the BoJ. Spoiler: it has all the same problems as the BoA.
Interesting. The book of Joseph fleeted past my mind at one point, but I have not thought about it since. I didnt know the church owned it, or really anything about it. I have some more reading I suppose...

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Re: New John Gee book about the Book of Abraham

Post by Corsair » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:28 am

Emower wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:55 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:35 am
Joseph identified the papyri as consisting of both the books of Abraham and Joseph in Egypt. The church owns both but no one ever talks about the BoJ. Spoiler: it has all the same problems as the BoA.
Interesting. The book of Joseph fleeted past my mind at one point, but I have not thought about it since. I didnt know the church owned it, or really anything about it. I have some more reading I suppose...
Charles Larson's book "By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus" is an excellent resource and is largely available online, for free. Apologists largely write off the Book of Joseph with simply stating:
FairMormon definitely wrote:While the Book of Abraham was translated and published in the Times and Seasons in 1842, Joseph never got around to translating the Book of Joseph. No such authenticated manuscript exists.
Whatever doctrinal treasures might have been found in the "Book of Joseph" were lost since Joseph Smith was lynched before he could get around to any translation. This additional ancient scripture was clearly not important enough for any other modern prophet to examine.

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Re: New John Gee book about the Book of Abraham

Post by dareka » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:01 am

Corsair wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:28 am
Whatever doctrinal treasures might have been found in the "Book of Joseph" were lost since Joseph Smith was lynched before he could get around to any translation. This additional ancient scripture was clearly not important enough for any other modern prophet to examine.
Years ago I attended a fireside which featured a scholar from BYU. I wish I could remember his name. He said that the church has the Book of Joseph scroll and is translating it. He claimed that one of the interesting things revealed in the scroll was that the universe is 3.333 billion years old. (Yes, three decimal places.) I haven't heard anything since about a translation. It's been long enough that I'd expect one by now, if it was going to happen. Just another FPR.

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Corsair
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Re: New John Gee book about the Book of Abraham

Post by Corsair » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:58 am

dareka wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:01 am
Years ago I attended a fireside which featured a scholar from BYU. I wish I could remember his name. He said that the church has the Book of Joseph scroll and is translating it. He claimed that one of the interesting things revealed in the scroll was that the universe is 3.333 billion years old. (Yes, three decimal places.) I haven't heard anything since about a translation. It's been long enough that I'd expect one by now, if it was going to happen. Just another FPR.
Here's my entirely unfounded conspiracy theory. Young Earth Creationists in the BYU Religion Department got a chance to see the scrolls first and they were annoyed at scrolls that were the "Book of Josepht" but failed to mention either Joseph in Egypt or Joseph Smith. Even worse, the Bruce McConkie fans among them did not like the fact that ancient Egyptians came up with a wild guess about the age of the universe that is suspiciously close to a 4.6 billion year old earth that those atheist scientists keep talking about. Since this age disagrees with Ken Hamm, Bruce McConkie, Joseph Fielding Smith, and other fundamentalists, this project was quietly shelved indefinitely.

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Hagoth
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Re: New John Gee book about the Book of Abraham

Post by Hagoth » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:09 pm

dareka wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:01 am
Corsair wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:28 am
Whatever doctrinal treasures might have been found in the "Book of Joseph" were lost since Joseph Smith was lynched before he could get around to any translation. This additional ancient scripture was clearly not important enough for any other modern prophet to examine.
Years ago I attended a fireside which featured a scholar from BYU. I wish I could remember his name. He said that the church has the Book of Joseph scroll and is translating it. He claimed that one of the interesting things revealed in the scroll was that the universe is 3.333 billion years old. (Yes, three decimal places.) I haven't heard anything since about a translation. It's been long enough that I'd expect one by now, if it was going to happen. Just another FPR.
It would be highly entertaining if the church released a Book of Joseph "translated" from this document. The papyrus in question has been translated numerous times. Just like the supposed Book of Abraham papyrus, it is a mundane funerary scroll that was buried with a mummy and is a collection of pagan prayers to Egyptian deities. It was created for a woman named Ta-shert Min and, also like the Book of Abraham scroll, it was written long after the time of Joseph and is dated to a century or two before the Christian Era.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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wtfluff
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Re: New John Gee book about the Book of Abraham

Post by wtfluff » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:45 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:09 pm
dareka wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:01 am
Corsair wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:28 am
Whatever doctrinal treasures might have been found in the "Book of Joseph" were lost since Joseph Smith was lynched before he could get around to any translation. This additional ancient scripture was clearly not important enough for any other modern prophet to examine.
Years ago I attended a fireside which featured a scholar from BYU. I wish I could remember his name. He said that the church has the Book of Joseph scroll and is translating it. He claimed that one of the interesting things revealed in the scroll was that the universe is 3.333 billion years old. (Yes, three decimal places.) I haven't heard anything since about a translation. It's been long enough that I'd expect one by now, if it was going to happen. Just another FPR.
It would be highly entertaining if the church released a Book of Joseph "translated" from this document. The papyrus in question has been translated numerous times. Just like the supposed Book of Abraham papyrus, it is a mundane funerary scroll that was buried with a mummy and is a collection of pagan prayers to Egyptian deities. It was created for a woman named Ta-shert Min and, also like the Book of Abraham scroll, it was written long after the time of Joseph and is dated to a century or two before the Christian Era.
I was going to mention that today there's no need for Magic Rocks, or so-called Seers to translate the Book of Joseph.

I'm happy to have been informed that real scholars have actually done the work. :mrgreen:
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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