Questions about the Atonement

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w2mz
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Questions about the Atonement

Post by w2mz » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:12 pm

Hagoth’s thread on celestial procreation made me think about the atonement and how that actually works. Maybe you all can help me understand.

First question: Did the pain of Christ’s sacrifice in the garden cover both the pain for the guilt of the perpetrator, and, the pain for the victims? For example, I read on yahoo recently about a man who beat to death his girlfriend’s 3 year old son because he wouldn’t obey. So in this case, you have an adult male inflicting the “sin” and a 3 year old who has no concept of “why” he is being beaten, only absolute physical pain at the hands of an adult. During the atonement process, did Christ feel both the intense anger and hatred in the man’s heart and mind, as well as the confusion and all consuming fear that the 3 year old must have endured before he succumb? How can the plight of that child be considered a “test”?

Did Christ feel the absolute soul crushing despair of a gay teenager who has gotten to the point that they feel their only option is a gun to their head?

How did Christ “pay” for a sin where a man forcibly rapes a child? How is that a test, and how is the child compensated by Christ?

Second question: I have been taught over and over that Christ bled from every pore and was mercilessly beaten, and crucified for us. I have also been taught that God is an eternal being, who loves me so much that he sent his only begotten son to die for me.

Who made law that Christ would have to die so violently for me? Is this the best plan that a loving HF that has had all eternity to think about could devise?

Is there and “opt out” where I can just cover my own sins vs. having flesh extracted from Christ for my sake? I’d rather accept a lower kingdom than have any more pain inflicted on my brother for my infractions.
The church has engineered your eternal family into a commodity that can be purchased with an annual fee. The fact that full tithing payment is a requirement for saving ordinances is the biggest red flag imaginable. Hagoth

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moksha
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Re: Questions about the Atonement

Post by moksha » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:48 pm

It took many generations over the course of centuries to cobble together the theology of the atonement. My guess is that it started out as an explanation and justification for why Jesus died if he was of the same substance as God. The Atonement idea ties that justification into a systemic package. His death was needed to wash away our sins, doubts, guilt, and shame. We got a clean slate and Jesus got to be our Savior through his atoning sacrifice. You have to admit this idea has a good economy of scale since it ties things together - why Jesus was sent to us and why he returned. This systemic explanation had more depth than just a calling his visit a reconnaissance mission.

I suspect it is more of a modern idea that a loving parent would not demand his child die to accomplish some external goal. God back then was viewed as a bringer of war, famine, pestilence, and an assortment of natural calamities. Not much of a leap to imagine such a God asking for capital sacrifices.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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w2mz
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Re: Questions about the Atonement

Post by w2mz » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:42 pm

moksha wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:48 pm
It took many generations over the course of centuries to cobble together the theology of the atonement. My guess is that it started out as an explanation and justification for why Jesus died if he was of the same substance as God. The Atonement idea ties that justification into a systemic package. His death was needed to wash away our sins, doubts, guilt, and shame. We got a clean slate and Jesus got to be our Savior through his atoning sacrifice. You have to admit this idea has a good economy of scale since it ties things together - why Jesus was sent to us and why he returned. This systemic explanation had more depth than just a calling his visit a reconnaissance mission.

I suspect it is more of a modern idea that a loving parent would not demand his child die to accomplish some external goal. God back then was viewed as a bringer of war, famine, pestilence, and an assortment of natural calamities. Not much of a leap to imagine such a God asking for capital sacrifices.
Thanks for the reply Moksha. I can see your logic in in terms of an old testament style, fire and brimstone, great wizard of OZ type governance God, demanding the death of chosen one to satiate his appetite for recompense.

However, the god of love I'm now told about weekly doesn't seem to square with that ideal, at least in my small brain. While I hear testimonies of how grateful people are for the atonement, I personally am horrified at the idea, and don't want anything to do with a supreme being that has no better way of saving my eternal soul than through barbarism and execution of his only beloved. That makes no sense.
The church has engineered your eternal family into a commodity that can be purchased with an annual fee. The fact that full tithing payment is a requirement for saving ordinances is the biggest red flag imaginable. Hagoth

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moksha
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Re: Questions about the Atonement

Post by moksha » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:56 am

w2mz wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:42 pm
However, the god of love I'm now told about weekly doesn't seem to square with that ideal, at least in my small brain. While I hear testimonies of how grateful people are for the atonement, I personally am horrified at the idea, and don't want anything to do with a supreme being that has no better way of saving my eternal soul than through barbarism and execution of his only beloved. That makes no sense.
Don't worry if your belief in God does not square with everything you have been told. If you are going to believe in something, then you might as well make that something worthwhile. That is why I think of God as the best thing I can imagine and then some. No hoary thunderer or harsh TBM God for me. Those type of gods with double lightning bolt insignias on their collar, together with feet of clay, do not hold a candle to the God of Love.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: Questions about the Atonement

Post by Hagoth » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:12 pm

I picture God as a rotund, smiling penguin who always has better and kinder answers than people who claim to know God.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Emower
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Re: Questions about the Atonement

Post by Emower » Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:01 pm

w2mz wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:12 pm
Hagoth’s thread on celestial procreation made me think about the atonement and how that actually works. Maybe you all can help me understand.

First question: Did the pain of Christ’s sacrifice in the garden cover both the pain for the guilt of the perpetrator, and, the pain for the victims? For example, I read on yahoo recently about a man who beat to death his girlfriend’s 3 year old son because he wouldn’t obey. So in this case, you have an adult male inflicting the “sin” and a 3 year old who has no concept of “why” he is being beaten, only absolute physical pain at the hands of an adult. During the atonement process, did Christ feel both the intense anger and hatred in the man’s heart and mind, as well as the confusion and all consuming fear that the 3 year old must have endured before he succumb? How can the plight of that child be considered a “test”?
From a tbm perspective:
Its not. That child was the victim of someone else's agency. It sucks but the child is taken straight back to God. This is an unpleasant aspect of the plan, but the majority of us voted for it.

And yes, when I was faithful I "knew" that Christ did feel that gay kids pain. I just didn't realize that my faith demanded Christ do nothing about it other than shrugging his shoulders.

I know the church line is that this life is a test, but not everyone gets tested. And there doesn't seem to be much in the way of what we would view as "compensation" in this life or the next. Maybe this is why 1/3 thought it was a crappy deal?

Maybe the theology and certainly testimony culture focuses way to much on compensation.

To the second thought, there is an opt out, which to many tbm's would be what you are doing now if you are inactive. But the catch is that Christ already paid it and it would be a double slap if you didn't use the money he left on the bar tab for you.

It is interesting to think about who made the law that required Christ to do what he did. Talmage, JFS, and Mconkie had alot to say about it, but they were speaking as a man. Most Mormon theology and culture would point to an outside force and laws that HF has to abide by. I view that as a typical cop out when theology breaks down to point to some unseen not understood force.

A lot of Mormonism involves shrugging shoulders.

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Hagoth
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Re: Questions about the Atonement

Post by Hagoth » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:59 pm

Emower wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:01 pm
Most Mormon theology and culture would point to an outside force and laws that HF has to abide by. I view that as a typical cop out when theology breaks down to point to some unseen not understood force.
The Book of Mormon tells us that God must punish us because if he doesn't he will cease to be God. Two questions: 1) what will he be if he stops being God? 2) who is checking up on God to make sure he isn't being too lenient on his children and threatening to fire him?

Now I'm picturing an oppressed cowering God who wishes he could be nice to his creations but there some kind of really scary bully God just waiting to smack him down if he lets the occasional tea drinker off with just a slap on the wrist.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Emower
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Re: Questions about the Atonement

Post by Emower » Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:03 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:59 pm
Emower wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:01 pm
Most Mormon theology and culture would point to an outside force and laws that HF has to abide by. I view that as a typical cop out when theology breaks down to point to some unseen not understood force.
The Book of Mormon tells us that God must punish us because if he doesn't he will cease to be God. Two questions: 1) what will he be if he stops being God? 2) who is checking up on God to make sure he isn't being too lenient on his children and threatening to fire him?

Now I'm picturing an oppressed cowering God who wishes he could be nice to his creations but there some kind of really scary bully God just waiting to smack him down if he lets the occasional tea drinker off with just a slap on the wrist.
A lot of my understanding about this came from a talk written by skousen about intelligences. This talk got passed around my mission in secret like a sacred tome of wisdom only those smart enough and really committed would understand.
The way I made it work was that there were rules laid down by someone (who was the subject of many unabashedly speculative discussions that really has no answer) that HF had to follow. If he didn't he would essentially be no better than me. A dirty rule breaker. As far as who is checking up on God this was answered by that talk as well for me, and the answer is all the intelligences. If God didn't follow the rules, they didn't follow him and that provided the motivation for God to mete out justice even if that justice was unpleasant.

As a tbm a lot of my understanding of how God worked came from this talk and my mothers teachings about it justice and mercy. The philosophy of men mingled with scripture and the resultant love child was me.

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