Mass deception!....WOW

[Rob4Hope]

OK...this has nothing really to do with nothing. Its just a "OH MY GOODNESS!" moment.

As I awoke this morning, I realized, yet again, that in most circumstances what is factual or wrong, real or fake, doesn't matter. Our entire planet is governed by propaganda, lies, distortions, etc. It BLOWS MY MIND. People don't care about truth--they care about their big-screen TV, the nice meal, and in some circumstances, just living another day!

Governments lie. Churches lie. Businesses lie. Individuals lie.

What would happen if all of the sudden, everyone told the truth? This planet would encounter revolution off the scale! ANGER would EXPLODE! So, we have to keep telling the lies.

The question is: when it comes right down to it, does the truth even matter?

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

I like Scott Adams theories about facts not mattering one bit. Persuasion matters. We are all stuck in the movie playing in our heads based on our own perceptions of reality.

[NOMinally Mormon]

Perhaps it's because we're wired to prioritize emotion over facts. As part of my job I deal with infant development. Infants communicate with their emotions and are born able to read the emotions of those who provide care. As they grow older, their learning process is mediated by emotion.

There are survival advantages to this setup, but the downside is that emotional manipulation and logical inconsistencies are enabled past childhood into adulthood.

[Rob4Hope]

I have to say I agree with both of you who posted above,...and to be honest, it not only frustrates me, it makes me angry. He who can persuade the best can deceive the best. And we end up with people like Joseph Smith who was pretty good at it. But, the people he was able to collect were the "magical folks"--those who were into that folk stuff that existed. Then there is Brigham Young who rides on his coat-tails, using violence, micro-management, and plain old being a BULLY A$$HOLE about the whole thing.

I remember hearing a comedian who did presidential impersonations. He had Bush Jr. down pat! Then he swung to Clinton. His line was: "I am not here. Isn't here just 'there' without a 't'?"

The point is that lying is universal, even an integral part of life. We all do it, and I wonder (like I said above), if truth even matters at all. Throw the facts out the window--what matters is how you feel.

[NOMinally Mormon]

Sometimes I think the objective truth is that it's all subjective.

[Palerider]

Think of the trend towards putting cameras everywhere. They are ubiquitous in the UK. Why is big brother doing it? Mostly because HE wants to know the truth. Who killed who. Who blew up which building. Who groped or raped whom. Who threw that cigarette butt on the sidewalk.

But for those who are in power.....they would prefer that no one know the truth about them. Their perceived image is all you peons need to be aware of.

I would say that the truth is quite important when it helps us. When it hurts us it's even more important....we just don't like it.

Love of truth is directly related to how badly we want to know it. It's the difference between courage and cowardice. Given enough time I think the truth usually manifests itself.

I also have the feeling that our world is due for a really big reality (truth) check. Then you'll see some people get a whole new perspective on what a "safe zone" is.

[1smartdodog]

There is a movie called “The invention of lying” funny take on if everyone told the absolute truth.

[Corsair]

There is a movie called “The invention of lying” funny take on if everyone told the absolute truth.

That was a brilliant movie. My wife watched it with me and was slightly uncomfortable while I was laughing.

[slavereeno]

DW cites this when we discuss things related to church history. "Everyone has a narrative and an agenda, so why believe one side over another?" If she likes this side and the other side has their own lies who gives a damn?

[Rob4Hope]

DW cites this when we discuss things related to church history. "Everyone has a narrative and an agenda, so why believe one side over another?" If she likes this side and the other side has their own lies who gives a damn?

Slavereeno,...if this is the case (and I don't fault her for being open and clear), why worry about ANYTHING?

But, not worrying about anything gets you in trouble, and can make you fatalistic to the extreme.

An example is this lawsuit going right now where the Bishop's protected a pedophile. Since we shouldn't believe one side over another (as is suggested), then why not be one who simply believes the bishop and brings this boy over to babysit the kids for the weekend while you and your wife leave town. I mean, after all, it doesn't really matter about the kids,...right?

I know the point is clear, and its sad. The general TBM approach is to cut slack to the church as much as possible, even basically saying it doesn't matter if one side or the other is lying anyway. But the crimes in this boy's life are "in his past"...meaning they didn't happen right now--they happened in "the past". The trend to support and protect people is a church thing, and that is also "in the past". So, why even care?

Nothing good generally comes from believing a lie. And believing some lies KILLS. To forgive the past, is to not learn from it, nor to hold people accountable for their choices.

Crime is crime.

My $0.02

PS. I think you made my point though. When it comes right down to it, people pick and choose what they want to believe. In many circumstances, factual information really has nothing to do with it--what matters is if they can fit it into the paradigm they themselves want to adopt.

[slavereeno]

My $0.02

PS. I think you made my point though. When it comes right down to it, people pick and choose what they want to believe. In many circumstances, factual information really has nothing to do with it--what matters is if they can fit it into the paradigm they themselves want to adopt.

I appreciate that, very much. I am still such a noob at the NOM thing, and because I am still getting my weekly re-neducations by attending each week, paying tithes, wearing the garment, blah blah blah. Sometimes, I seriously need to remind myself why I NOMed in the first place, and frankly that scares the $hite out of me. I currently see no end in sight.

[LaMachina]

Our entire planet is governed by propaganda, lies, distortions, etc

"Everyone has a narrative and an agenda, so why believe one side over another?

I think these two statements sum up what's wrong with how people view the world today. Lying is nothing new but the level of distrust we have in each other and our institutions has ballooned to uncomfortable levels.

I don't necessarily disagree that the planet is full of propaganda etc and our institutions have certainly earned their reputations for being untrustworthy but I'm worried about the tinfoil hat nature of some of this.

I'm not sure where that healthy position is between skepticism and trust but, where ever it is, developing real critical thinking skills seems to be the key and our only hope...I'm not sure if humanity in general is capable of the task but despite my doubts I do lean that way.

[Rob4Hope]

I'm not sure where that healthy position is between skepticism and trust but, where ever it is, developing real critical thinking skills seems to be the key and our only hope...I'm not sure if humanity in general is capable of the task but despite my doubts I do lean that way.

I agree that critical thinking skills are, if employed, the way through. You said you are not sure if humanity in general is capable of [this] task. I'm willing to weigh in with an emphatic NO. I don't think they are--some maybe, but not the majority.

Its because of this problems (and I think its a problem), you will always have sheeple and those who exploit them.

JS found his folk magic folks in his day, and today there are Q15 people who speak with IMMENSE authority. There are thousands who are ready to roll over and drink the kool aid because THEY ARE SURE.

its sad.

[NOMormon]

Think of every type of information you take in each day from news stories to advertisements to conversations with friends. How much of that information is true? After paying attention to it for a while I realized that the majority of everything I heard or read each day was false. Not that it was maliciously false or even intentionally false but just highly embellished or misremembered in the retelling sort of false.

It's true that we don't really worry about it because what we want in life is to be comfortable and to have our needs met, not to get to the truth of it all. I've watched people go through crazy rationalizations to justify what they want or to hide from the truths about themselves. It's just how we are wired. I didn't really start to believe the church was an invention until I realized how sick I was of giving it all my money and sitting through pointless meetings that had no productive value to my life. It was when I realized the church was a huge obstacle towards allowing me to live the way I wanted to and feel the way I wanted to that I started to become critical.

[Rob4Hope]

It was when I realized the church was a huge obstacle towards allowing me to live the way I wanted to and feel the way I wanted to that I started to become critical.

Its interesting this pathway--this realization you and MANY (including myself)--passed through BEFORE we were even ready to be critical and look harder, seems to be a necessary first step to "waking up".

I can speak for myself when I say I was a TBM, through and through. I was one who "knew" it was true. I NEW IT WITH EVERY FIBER OF MY SOUL!

Then there was that pesky problem of plausible deniability--which was my first crack in the shelf. Then that dang polyandry problem. Then a few more.

How did I know so much before, just to find out I didn't really know what I thought I did?

[EternityIsNow]

Random thoughts on this interesting topic...

Finding truth is not simple, consider that the best methods we have in science are only approximately valid. In science and engineering we use statistics for a reason, because truth is often only a probability event.

Yes, mass deception is part of the human condition. In fact, many animals also use deception to survive, or to find a mate. This is normal.

I'm not downplaying truth, or saying deception is good, just observing that this is part of the human condition. Finding real truth is very, very difficult. And often only a probability number (an 'effect size' in the research world). So we act like we know things are true, and that act is a fairly ordinary human self-deception. But that act is part of what makes a society function.

• The real truth about money, it is all an illusion. Just a piece of paper. Yet money makes the economy work.
• The real truth about physical attraction, it is another illusion. A trick that makes our brain think that someone who looks nice actually is nice.
• The real truth about religion, of course another illusion. Our brains co-evolved with religious rituals and that led to organized societies.
• The real truth about laws, they are all arbitrary. Anyone can actually do anything they want to anyone else. The only thing stopping them is the illusion of a law and punishment, which in real life may or may not happen.
• The real truth about families, most are dysfunctional and do not work well in isolation from communities, humans need functional communities, which is probably one reason so many are reluctant to consider 'truth' problems a valid reason to leave their religions.
• The real truth about truth, we have very little of it in the real world. Humans are pretty ignorant of the few truths we have identified, and often live in a relativistic emotional fog.

In the end, deception is a given in human society. What I think matters the most, is whether our deceptions are at least close to probable truths, some deceptions are more functional than others. And that goes for religions of course, some are better than others. And even within religions, some beliefs are more useful than others.

Truth is complicated in the real world. So we tend to look for the most functional, comfortable deceptions we can find.