Brushes with "the other side"?

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LaMachina
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by LaMachina » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:30 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:55 pm
This one is pretty good:
Paramedic Frank apologized, without wondering how John could have known that the CPR had been continued for another 10 minutes. But John clarified anyway: I was there . . . you see . . . I saw the whole thing . . . and I remember Jack saying that he wanted to “call it” and you saying that your probationer needed extra work on his CPR anyway, so you may as well keep going. Frank was naturally shocked to hear that his feeling at the time that the victim had been out of body had been correct and that the victim had “heard” the senior paramedic talking was also correct. Frank was fascinated. He asked John whether the latter remembered anything else. Well, I remember that the other paramedic suggested that there would be just as much likelihood of resuscitating the manequien [sic] back at the station as resuscitating me . . . and it was about then that I realised that this was serious and that if I wanted to live . . . I was going to have to get back in that body . . . and the next thing I know . . . I’m in hospital a few days later. Frank was so impressed with this statement from a man who had been in asystole that he made sure to recount the case to the other paramedics who had been at the scene that day— and to share the account on his website.

Rivas, Titus; Dirven,Anny; Smit,Rudolf. The Self Does Not Die: Verified Paranormal Phenomena from Near-Death Experiences (p. 79). International Association for Near-Death Studies. Kindle Edition.
Lots of the NDEs are talking about needing to get back into their "body". They are outside it, can see it and know what it is. This disengaging of the physical from consciousness is part of the crux of the matter.
Honestly, I'm not terribly impressed by this sort of thing. How come we can induce an 'out of body' experience in perfectly healthy individuals?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... periences/

How come a stroke victim, who is clearly still alive and conscious in some way, will have their perception altered to such a degree that they no longer feel like they're in their body? See TED talk shared earlier.

The smoking gun for consciousness outside the brain would be definitive evidence that an individual saw or perhaps even heard something they couldn't possibly hear or see within the vicinity of their body. So far I've only seen anecdotal stories. Look up the AWARE study, it would be pretty convincing. But so far it seems to jave turned up bupkis.

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:03 pm

LaMachina wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:30 pm
Rob4Hope wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:55 pm
This one is pretty good:
Paramedic Frank apologized, without wondering how John could have known that the CPR had been continued for another 10 minutes. But John clarified anyway: I was there . . . you see . . . I saw the whole thing . . . and I remember Jack saying that he wanted to “call it” and you saying that your probationer needed extra work on his CPR anyway, so you may as well keep going. Frank was naturally shocked to hear that his feeling at the time that the victim had been out of body had been correct and that the victim had “heard” the senior paramedic talking was also correct. Frank was fascinated. He asked John whether the latter remembered anything else. Well, I remember that the other paramedic suggested that there would be just as much likelihood of resuscitating the manequien [sic] back at the station as resuscitating me . . . and it was about then that I realised that this was serious and that if I wanted to live . . . I was going to have to get back in that body . . . and the next thing I know . . . I’m in hospital a few days later. Frank was so impressed with this statement from a man who had been in asystole that he made sure to recount the case to the other paramedics who had been at the scene that day— and to share the account on his website.

Rivas, Titus; Dirven,Anny; Smit,Rudolf. The Self Does Not Die: Verified Paranormal Phenomena from Near-Death Experiences (p. 79). International Association for Near-Death Studies. Kindle Edition.
Lots of the NDEs are talking about needing to get back into their "body". They are outside it, can see it and know what it is. This disengaging of the physical from consciousness is part of the crux of the matter.
Honestly, I'm not terribly impressed by this sort of thing. How come we can induce an 'out of body' experience in perfectly healthy individuals?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... periences/

How come a stroke victim, who is clearly still alive and conscious in some way, will have their perception altered to such a degree that they no longer feel like they're in their body? See TED talk shared earlier.

The smoking gun for consciousness outside the brain would be definitive evidence that an individual saw or perhaps even heard something they couldn't possibly hear or see within the vicinity of their body. So far I've only seen anecdotal stories. Look up the AWARE study, it would be pretty convincing. But so far it seems to jave turned up bupkis.
Maybe there is nothing to it. Consciousness doesn't exist outside the body (perhaps)--and the lack of evidence is evidence I suppose. But there are tens of thousands of consistent NDE experiences, and I am not saying OOBE is always part of that, or even verifiable.

Whether you believe consciousness can exist outside the body or not doesn't discount SOMETHING is happening in NDE that science can't explain. I suppose that is why this topic is so interesting to me. And if you speak with someone who was clinically dead (and I've spoken to at least 3 of these people), you can't convince them it was a hallucination. Something happened during that "dead time", and science has yet to give an explanation that holds water--as far as they are concerned.

That is why I find this so interesting. Its a puzzle....

LaMachina...tell me more about this "smoking gun" idea. The book I'm reading has SEVERAL verifiable accounts of people hearing or seeing things that were outside of their local vicinity. Can you tell me more of what you mean?

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LaMachina
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by LaMachina » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:47 am

Rob4Hope wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:03 pm
LaMachina...tell me more about this "smoking gun" idea. The book I'm reading has SEVERAL verifiable accounts of people hearing or seeing things that were outside of their local vicinity. Can you tell me more of what you mean?
What are we counting as 'verifiable' accounts? If it could be convincingly demonstrated that someone were able to see or hear something that would be impossible to see or hear from the typical POV of their body than that would be a smoking gun indicating that we could quite possibly perceive the world beyond our physical sensory organs.

The AWARE study put simply, the scientists project or display images in places impossible to see from the operating table but that would be possible to see from a position floating above one's body. It's a remarkably simple setup and if it were to provide positive data it would be a fascinating find. So far, nothing. IANDS has reported on it:

https://iands.org/news/news/front-page- ... ished.html

I'd love it if we found good evidence that life can exist beyond death. Clearly something is happening with NDEs and OOBEs, just like something is happening in those experiments that induce OOBEs. The anecdotal stories I've seen do not convincingly indicate the ability to see something from outside the normal perspective of the body. The ones I've seen that do claim that sort of experience I've found to be too vague or not easily substantiated. Considering the large number of people who experience these things I'd assume that there would be a large number that more clearly establish an ability to 'remote view' as it were.

While I consider myself reasonably well-read on the subject you certainly have a more expansive reading of these sorts of things. Perhaps you have something more substantial that I'm not aware of. But in the meantime, I will continue to monitor AWARE to see if they discover something...although honestly, I'm not holding my breath.

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:53 pm

LaMachina wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:47 am
Rob4Hope wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:03 pm
LaMachina...tell me more about this "smoking gun" idea. The book I'm reading has SEVERAL verifiable accounts of people hearing or seeing things that were outside of their local vicinity. Can you tell me more of what you mean?
What are we counting as 'verifiable' accounts? If it could be convincingly demonstrated that someone were able to see or hear something that would be impossible to see or hear from the typical POV of their body than that would be a smoking gun indicating that we could quite possibly perceive the world beyond our physical sensory organs.

The AWARE study put simply, the scientists project or display images in places impossible to see from the operating table but that would be possible to see from a position floating above one's body. It's a remarkably simple setup and if it were to provide positive data it would be a fascinating find. So far, nothing. IANDS has reported on it:

https://iands.org/news/news/front-page- ... ished.html

I'd love it if we found good evidence that life can exist beyond death. Clearly something is happening with NDEs and OOBEs, just like something is happening in those experiments that induce OOBEs. The anecdotal stories I've seen do not convincingly indicate the ability to see something from outside the normal perspective of the body. The ones I've seen that do claim that sort of experience I've found to be too vague or not easily substantiated. Considering the large number of people who experience these things I'd assume that there would be a large number that more clearly establish an ability to 'remote view' as it were.

While I consider myself reasonably well-read on the subject you certainly have a more expansive reading of these sorts of things. Perhaps you have something more substantial that I'm not aware of. But in the meantime, I will continue to monitor AWARE to see if they discover something...although honestly, I'm not holding my breath.
Thanks for responding. I read a little about this AWARE thing on the IANDS site as well.

This book I'm reading now has several accounts that do what you are claiming--they are 3rd party verified accounts, or so the claim is.

I'm so bogged down in other things my enjoyment reading time is almost nonexistent. I'm about 25% through the book. If I encounter some accounts that look pretty good, let me share them as well as the reference. Maybe there is some of this information--and to be fair, maybe not. Either way, I confess I hope there is something more to these NDEs than just "stories".

I do know that those I've talked to that have had NDEs--you can't convince them something more than a hallucination happened. Their experiences, to them, were the most real thing they have ever had happen.

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