How to Reconcile LDS Doubts

[Azrael]

I believe Joseph was not commanded to institute plural marriage. I believe he was removed By Father before more damage could be done. I think the Jospeh Smith Translation of the Bible is a work of the Adversary. I think several false prophets have served as President of the LDS since. I think the Mormons have so much right, but a few things wrong, and when Christ returns to claim his throne those wrongs will be straightened out.

I don’t care what the LDS Church thinks of me for calling Smith (my cousin heh) a fallen prophet. I’m still on their rolls and if they want to take me off that’s their issue, not mine!

Trying to understand your view here, so feel free to correct me if I'm misinterpreting you. You feel that JSj was a fallen prophet who was mistaken for instituting polygamy and was removed for having done so. Okay, the lord never intended his church to practice it. Mormonism (or at least the Brighamite movement of it,) continued that practice as well. Not only did they continue it, but greatly greatly expanded it bringing much ruin and suffering to many people for the decades in which it was in use. So by your logic, modern Mormonism is also the product of a fallen prophet, right? How man Mormonism be the truth if it is a direct outgrown of unapproved "doctrine", for lack of a better term.

I believe the Church is a Church of Christ, even the most correct Church, which should be enough. They demand I sustain Smith and all of his mistakes too, I can’t any longer.

Next, I would caution you about relying on your ancestry to JSj. The thing about genealogy is that it branches FAST. by the time you are out to the 5th or 6th cousin level, you are literally related to millions of living people today. I am personally related to 12 presidents of the US, the founders of 5 well known religions (including JSj), dozens of modern celebrities, several European royal families, and two famous criminal gangs. And that's just the stuff I know about and does not include my wife's ancestry. I'm 1st cousin, about 14 generations back from Queen Anne Boleyn, from there the whole Tutor dynasty of British monarchy and from there you can link into several European royal families. That really doesn't matter. A bunch of dead relatives have nothing to do with who I am today.

.

Of course, I wasn’t imply anything above, ‘heh’. I do believe lineage is a good indicator of many things. We can be almost exactly like some distant relative from 12 generations ago, with major traits that haven’t been seen in as long. I would warn against not putting stock in potential traits that didn’t come from the pure male or pure female sides of your lines also! Absolute expectations are negative in analog analogies.

Ancestry.com has a tool that will take your genealogy and link you to all the noticeable people that it can find. The more complete your genealogy the more people it can link you to. It can be a fun way to spend an afternoon looking at all the connections. That's just the nature of genealogy and the math of exponential growth. Keep in mind, that mathematically, you are no more than an 8th cousin to anyone alive today.

I think you’re buying into misinformation that’s built around assumptions made by mathematic probability concerning DNA. You can have a 12th cousin that looks and acts very much like you. Odds are you won’t.

The free version of the ancestor finder is available at BYU.edu. Relativefinder.org

My genealogy is fairly complete. A few important lines need work though. Right now 6 of my 8 great-grandparents go back from 1000-4500 years. I have tons of lines that go back to King David, or so I’m told by these databases. Related to most of the Roman Emperors, most of the King’s from 600-present, including most of the modern western rulers.

Strangely it is the two lines that are the most important, the father’s father’s father’s and the mother’s mother’s mother’s lines go back the least so far.

Do you have someone from the Mayflower? A Tilley, Howland, or Brewster perhaps?

[Brent]

The beauty of cherry picking is that you only take the cherries you want. I believe in this case that our friend here is simply making it up as he goes along and making sure it fits his personal narrative so that he can be one of the hundred and forty four thousand.

Which is what every Mormon must do to some degree to keep from going completely off the deep end with all of the contradictions and obfuscations.

BINGO.

[Hagoth]

The thing about genealogy is that it branches FAST.

e.g. EVERYONE in Europe (and most white Americans) is descended from Charlemagne.

[Hagoth]

We have 7.2 billion alive now, they say there is a man whose lived in the past for each alive now, 7.2 x 7.2 = 14.4 billion. Divided by one in ten thousand, and you have 144,000. And with that babble I digress.

But that's only if you believe the human race is 6,000 years old. If you factor reality into it those numbers don't work. The Population Reference Bureau estimates that there have been 108.2 billion people on this planet, using a 50,000 BC as the starting date.

[Hagoth]

There was an Arch-Angel in Heaven which wanted perfect prophets, it was Lucifer, and every time we claim some religion is absolutely right or wrong, or this prophet is perfect or that one is not, we become followers of Lucifer’s will.

And now the LDS church has taken Lucifer's role upon themselves. They demand that you believe that only one religion is true and perfect (until you point out a problem and then all of a sudden it's because our leaders are imperfect) and to demand that we follow exact teachings to the letter of the law even down to the specificity of how many ear piercings and how much shoulder skin is allowable. Sure they talk about free agency, but they also deny it (e.g. Bednar's claim that you lose your agency at baptism, the redaction of the words "free agency" from Ronald Poleman's talk, etc.)

Azrael, what you need to understand is that when you talk about Lucifer, or the 144,000, or anything like that to the the vast majority of people in this forum you might as well be debating elves vs. dwarves from Lord of the Rings. Most of us have put those things behind us and moved on. No amount of proclaiming and authoritative posturing will put that genie back in the bottle for us. We. Don't. Believe. It. It holds no power over us.

The typical comeback to the above statement is, "oh boy are you gonna be sorry when you wake up in hell and realize that I was right all along!" Please don't.

[Azrael]

There was an Arch-Angel in Heaven which wanted perfect prophets, it was Lucifer, and every time we claim some religion is absolutely right or wrong, or this prophet is perfect or that one is not, we become followers of Lucifer’s will.

And now the LDS church has taken Lucifer's role upon themselves. They demand that you believe that only one religion is true and perfect (until you point out a problem and then all of a sudden it's because our leaders are imperfect) and to demand that we follow exact teachings to the letter of the law even down to the specificity of how many ear piercings and how much shoulder skin is allowable. Sure they talk about free agency, but they also deny it (e.g. Bednar's claim that you lose your agency at baptism, the redaction of the words "free agency" from Ronald Poleman's talk, etc.)

Azrael, what you need to understand is that when you talk about Lucifer, or the 144,000, or anything like that to the the vast majority of people in this forum you might as well be debating elves vs. dwarves from Lord of the Rings. Most of us have put those things behind us and moved on. No amount of proclaiming and authoritative posturing will put that genie back in the bottle for us. We. Don't. Believe. It. It holds no power over us.

The typical comeback to the above statement is, "oh boy are you gonna be sorry when you wake up in hell and realize that I was right all along!" Please don't.

I got your point the 3rd time you warned me what this community is to you.

You are kind of hysterical that someone is going to say something to upset your apparently delicate sensibilities.

Perhaps I’m not that guy.

The irony is, it appears you’re worried I’m going to say something you don’t agree with religiously, in a way where it seems like you are insisting how I should think concerning religion.

I’m exactly the kind of person this forum advertises for.

If this is a bait and switch, and it has to be anti Mormon or the highway, why pretend otherwise?

I think know what you are.

[Palerider]

There was an Arch-Angel in Heaven which wanted perfect prophets, it was Lucifer, and every time we claim some religion is absolutely right or wrong, or this prophet is perfect or that one is not, we become followers of Lucifer’s will.

I got your point the 3rd time you warned me what this community is to you.

You are kind of hysterical that someone is going to say something to upset your apparently delicate sensibilities.

Perhaps I’m not that guy.

The irony is, it appears you’re worried I’m going to say something you don’t agree with religiously, in a way where it seems like you are insisting how I should think concerning religion.

I’m exactly the kind of person this forum advertises for.

If this is a bait and switch, and it has to be anti Mormon or the highway, why pretend otherwise?

I think know what you are.

I think what Hagoth is saying here is that you are free to express your opinion, but opinions from intelligent people are:

1. Usually backed up with valuable, serious, and whenever possible empirical data. Otherwise why should we listen to you or give you any credence?

2. You can speculate all you want but not without blowback. People will disagree with you vehemently unless you are convincing with some sort of logical evidence and reasoning. It starts to be unproductive.

For example, in the above statement you say that Lucifer, the Arch-Angel wanted "perfect prophets". There is just nothing in the scriptures that supports that statement/claim. Zero.

So you look ridiculous until you can pony up some evidence that supports your claim. Is this making any sense to you?

[Azrael]

I got your point the 3rd time you warned me what this community is to you.

You are kind of hysterical that someone is going to say something to upset your apparently delicate sensibilities.

Perhaps I’m not that guy.

The irony is, it appears you’re worried I’m going to say something you don’t agree with religiously, in a way where it seems like you are insisting how I should think concerning religion.

I’m exactly the kind of person this forum advertises for.

If this is a bait and switch, and it has to be anti Mormon or the highway, why pretend otherwise?

I think know what you are.

I think what Hagoth is saying here is that you are free to express your opinion, but opinions from intelligent people are:

1. Usually backed up with valuable, serious, and whenever possible empirical data. Otherwise why should we listen to you or give you any credence?

2. You can speculate all you want but not without blowback. People will disagree with you vehemently unless you are convincing with some sort of logical evidence and reasoning. It starts to be unproductive.

For example, in the above statement you say that Lucifer, the Arch-Angel wanted "perfect prophets". There is just nothing in the scriptures that supports that statement/claim. Zero.

So you look ridiculous until you can pony up some evidence that supports your claim. Is this making any sense to you?

How many mansions does God offer? Many.

How many does Lucifer offer? One.

I could go on and on, and cite scripture you don’t respect, but I don’t think your mind and spirit are open to look outside the Satanic desire that there is only one.

[Palerider]

How many mansions does God offer? Many.

How many does Lucifer offer? One.

I could go on and on, and cite scripture you don’t respect, but I don’t think your mind and spirit are open to look outside the Satanic desire that there is only one.

See, there you go again deflecting. "How many mansions" has nothing to do with what we're talking about. It's utterly irrelevant.

The partial statement, "your mind and spirit are open to look outside the Satanic desire that there is only one" is nonsensical.

Is English your native language? Did you do poorly when it came to writing skills in highschool?

We can allow for that as a mitigating circumstance but it would help to know.

[Hagoth]

I got your point the 3rd time you warned me what this community is to you.

You are kind of hysterical that someone is going to say something to upset your apparently delicate sensibilities.

No, I've just been trying, in the most polite way I know to tell you that no one here is taking you seriously when you talk that way.

I think know what you are.

If the rest of that thought is anything but "the voice of reason" please enlighten me.

[Azrael]

I got your point the 3rd time you warned me what this community is to you.

You are kind of hysterical that someone is going to say something to upset your apparently delicate sensibilities.

No, I've just been trying, in the most polite way I know to tell you that no one here is taking you seriously when you talk that way.

I think know what you are.

If the rest of that thought is anything but "the voice of reason" please enlighten me.

I just think you’re a run of the mill Satan worshipper, hellbent on forcing everyone around him to believe what he believes.

You pretend this is a forum to reconcile doubts, but in your spirit, there is no road except Satan’s road. Are you a pervert or an alcoholic or something? In my experience these are the ones who demand others empathize with their plight, after they’ve rejected any hope.

You can ban me any time.

I already found what I was looking for here.

Btw, Homer Simpson is an alcoholic glutton who is an awful father and a horrible example of an adult. He also is dumb as a box of rocks yet tasks himself with not letting a nuke plant melt down on a daily basis.

Good day, see you at your final judgement.

[Hagoth]

[Anon70]

I already found what I was looking for here.

Good day, see you at your final judgement.

Care to shares what you’ve founnd?

Why will you be at Hagoths final judgment?

[Azrael]

I already found what I was looking for here.

Good day, see you at your final judgement.

Care to shares what you’ve founnd?

Why will you be at Hagoths final judgment?

We shall have to wait and see.

[RubinHighlander]

I got your point the 3rd time you warned me what this community is to you.

You are kind of hysterical that someone is going to say something to upset your apparently delicate sensibilities.

No, I've just been trying, in the most polite way I know to tell you that no one here is taking you seriously when you talk that way.

I think know what you are.

If the rest of that thought is anything but "the voice of reason" please enlighten me.

I just think you’re a run of the mill Satan worshipper, hellbent on forcing everyone around him to believe what he believes.

You pretend this is a forum to reconcile doubts, but in your spirit, there is no road except Satan’s road. Are you a pervert or an alcoholic or something? In my experience these are the ones who demand others empathize with their plight, after they’ve rejected any hope.

You can ban me any time.

I already found what I was looking for here.

Btw, Homer Simpson is an alcoholic glutton who is an awful father and a horrible example of an adult. He also is dumb as a box of rocks yet tasks himself with not letting a nuke plant melt down on a daily basis.

Good day, see you at your final judgement.

Looks like you already laid down the judgement there Azrael. I find your lack of facts and legitimate sources frustrating. Your tone is very akin to many fundamentalist/extremist baptists and born again Christians that I have tried to have conversations with that were terribly unproductive. Have fun drinking your own koolaid.

[Azrael]

No, I've just been trying, in the most polite way I know to tell you that no one here is taking you seriously when you talk that way.


If the rest of that thought is anything but "the voice of reason" please enlighten me.

I just think you’re a run of the mill Satan worshipper, hellbent on forcing everyone around him to believe what he believes.

You pretend this is a forum to reconcile doubts, but in your spirit, there is no road except Satan’s road. Are you a pervert or an alcoholic or something? In my experience these are the ones who demand others empathize with their plight, after they’ve rejected any hope.

You can ban me any time.

I already found what I was looking for here.

Btw, Homer Simpson is an alcoholic glutton who is an awful father and a horrible example of an adult. He also is dumb as a box of rocks yet tasks himself with not letting a nuke plant melt down on a daily basis.

Good day, see you at your final judgement.

Looks like you already laid down the judgement there Azrael. I find your lack of facts and legitimate sources frustrating. Your tone is very akin to many fundamentalist/extremist baptists and born again Christians that I have tried to have conversations with that were terribly unproductive. Have fun drinking your own koolaid.

I’ve studied with most church’s and I have a wide range of exposure to a ton of different scripture from a ton of different religions and sects. I tend to look at them all through the same glass, I pick out the obvious true principles taught and look closely at the prophecies.

You are really implying I laid down final judgement on this guy? Do you understand it’s normal and necessary to judge a person’s behavior and words to categorize them intellectually, spiritually, emotionally, and that has absolutely nothing to do with the warning in scripture about ‘judgement’?

I’m taught by the prophets how to judge a person, I didn’t make any claim to be passing final judgement on him.

I don’t expect anyone to agree with me. In fact I’m on forums like this in hopes folks disagree with me so I can learn from them.

So far most of what I’ve encountered here are fragile discussions propped up in opposition with fallacy and blanket statements rooted in fear and illogic.

Nobody has been able to articulate why they disagree with anything I’ve said except, “I’m here because I don’t even believe, but let me tell you that scripture means something else!”

Is it possible a person could break their own faith by routinely examining scripture with a closed mind and poor logic. Is that me or you? Why?

[Palerider]

You pretend this is a forum to reconcile doubts...

It is relatively already understood by those here that the LDS church is not at all what it professes to be. For most it is not in question whether it is true or not.

Some of the "doubts" that are being reconciled are the good fruits that are seemingly coming from a corrupt tree. The goodness seen in many members. The tendency towards wholesomeness. The great sense of community and family.

But the "good tree-good fruits" analogy is the incorrect one for the LDS church. The church is a form/tree of Christianity that has had many false branches (doctrines) grafted into it. To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson, the modern religionists had grafted into the simple Gospel of Christ, mystycisms and false doctrines that were abhorrent and unintelligible to the average man.

The purpose of this doctrinal forum is stated as:
"Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome."

Implicit in that statement is a search for truth.

Unsubstantiated opinion with no empirical grounding or poorly interpreted scripture or using pseudo-scripture that has no basis in truth does not increase "understanding".

Your initial question to us was have any of us prayed to know that Joseph Smith was a prophet. The answer was YES! But the answer to the prayer was a resounding "No!"

That "no" has become our truth but not without a great deal of research to back it up. The entire Joseph Smith story does not add up. We are not anti-mormon.

We are "Pro-Truth" as far as it may be known in this life. We are seekers. But we don't like re-covering ground that we've already been over. Even less being preached to about it.

True seekers ask honest questions in order to educate themselves. Those who have viable answers give them as propositions for consideration.

Absolutists preach at you and try to make square pegs fit in round holes. It is counter-productive.

[Palerider]

Nobody has been able to articulate why they disagree with anything I’ve said...

At best this is a misrepresentation, at worst an outright lie.

Did you forget the following where I plainly explained your misinterpretation of the 144,000 and showed it to be scripturally unsupportable? You never responded. Nothing.

I assume it was because you have no good response. But maybe this was one of those cases where you were trying to learn something from someone by being on these types of websites?

Here it is again.

"Also, your exegetics of the 144000 is to put it bluntly....wrong. Sorry.

If you read the scripture more carefully you will find that each 12000 comes from a literal tribe of Israel. Meaning that they are literal descendants of that tribe. They are indeed Israelites by blood. They are NOT part of the adoption.

Further, if you continue reading from chapter 7 of Revelations starting in verse 9 it states:

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

So as it is plainly seen, the 144000 sealed Israelites are most definitely not the only people to receive salvation from the Lord. There are innumerable others who will as well.

For as much as you make of this 144000 issue, I should think that you would want to be very correct in your interpretation of this scripture."

[Hagoth]

You are really implying I laid down final judgement on this guy? Do you understand it’s normal and necessary to judge a person’s behavior and words to categorize them intellectually, spiritually, emotionally, and that has absolutely nothing to do with the warning in scripture about ‘judgement’?

Azrael, do you have any idea how sad and broken this attitude is? I reached out genuinely to offer to meet you and get to know you and then you slammed me with a list of cruel insults. I have to admit I found it funny, so thanks for that at least. I have disagreed with some of the things you have said but I don't recall calling you names. I really feel bad for you if that's where your mind goes when someone doesn't agree with you. I will overlook the fact that you are in direct violation of the board rules (like I said, we're very lightly moderated) and just say how sad it is that you can't find some joy in talking to people who don't buy into your personal wackiness, especially when you unload that wackiness in an inappropriate place and then get offended and defensive if people push back. Just to be clear, I'm not applying that term to you personally; there are lots of forms of wackiness here, and a lot of people don't buy into my personal wackiness, nor do I expect them to.

I often wonder why it is that people who proclaim their Christianity the loudest are so quick to abandon Jesus' teachings about judgement and how we should treat others.

p.s. Just to answer your accusations: I don't believe in Satan, but if I did I certainly wouldn't be stupid enough to worship him! I don't care much for alcohol (Diet Pepsi is my drink of choice), I'm not a genius but I don't think I'm particularly stupid, I think the only way I could be categorized as a pervert is if you define pervert as a devoted family man who has a very respectful and loving relationship with his wife, and I do not, nor have I ever worked at a nuclear power plant.

[slavereeno]

Looks like I missed a bunch of this thread. It appears we are now talking about a religion that is the love child of a ménage à trois between early Mormonism, the Jehova's Witnesses and The Heaven's Gate Cult?