FAIR is FOUL

[consiglieri]

RFM interviews Bill Reel about Bill's experiences working for FAIR (now FAIRMormon) and gets some juicy tidbits about what goes on behind the scenes of the organization that is devoted to defending the LDS Church.

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/201 ... ent-227361

Enjoy!

--Consiglieri

[Hagoth]

I'm really enjoying this, Consiglieri. I'll finish on my bike commute home today.

I think for many of us FAIR was a gateway to apostasy. As you and Bill point out, you go there looking for help and discover the rabbit hole. It makes you wonder why the contributors to FAIR don't see it.

In the early days of my faith crisis I had a lot of trouble understanding the relationships between the seer stone, the Urim and Thummim and the gold plates. I kept writing to the "Ask and Apologist" feature on FAIR. They gave me answers, often in great detail, but for some reason I never felt like I achieved a good, comprehensive answer, so I kept writing them for more clarification. Eventually they stopped responding to me. It took me a while to realize that I never felt satisfied with the answers because they were only giving me half-answers. When I finally dug beneath that layer they just put me on the do-not-respond list.

Here's a question I have (maybe Bill addresses it later on). I wonder if there's any way of knowing how many of the contributors to FAIR eventually tumble down the rabbit hole themselves and either move on or have to disengage from apologetics to avoid the need to move on.

[BriansThoughtMirror]

I wonder if there's any way of knowing how many of the contributors to FAIR eventually tumble down the rabbit hole themselves and either move on or have to disengage from apologetics to avoid the need to move on.

I bet there aren't many. The FAIR contributors must be an internet savvy crowd, and if one of them eventually changed their minds, I would bet they'd want to say so online. Of course, they may be hiding because of social/family obligations like many of us have done, so that may be way off.

[nibbler]

Lord forgive me for having this thought but I know a few apologist types that love the massive ego boost that comes from "knowing all the problems and believing anyway." It's probably harder to wriggle out of a comfort zone when that comfort zone includes enjoying a relatively prominent place in the culture, especially when the alternative is complete obscurity.

[RubinHighlander]

Another great cast boys! Keep calling them out and they will keep barking but never biting.

Lord forgive me for having this thought but I know a few apologist types that love the massive ego boost that comes from "knowing all the problems and believing anyway." It's probably harder to wriggle out of a comfort zone when that comfort zone includes enjoying a relatively prominent place in the culture, especially when the alternative is complete obscurity.

This! They totally get off on being important defenders of the tribe. Also, the egotistical attitude/mental gymnastics, telling themselves that it must be true because they believe it and it could never possibly be wrong because of that.

Most of us here on NOM know just how difficult it is, especially the older you are and the more years you spent in it and donated to it, to admit we were duped by TSCC. It's beyond a kick in the crotch. But the feeling of being honest to yourself and your own integrity, as a genuine seeker of truth, helps dull the pain over time and I'd take that kick all over again, as painful as it was. The new liberating feeling of freedom has been well worth it for me.

[Hagoth]

Lord forgive me for having this thought but I know a few apologist types that love the massive ego boost that comes from "knowing all the problems and believing anyway." It's probably harder to wriggle out of a comfort zone when that comfort zone includes enjoying a relatively prominent place in the culture, especially when the alternative is complete obscurity.

I've seen this too. When they consider themselves the smartest guy in the room and become respected as the local go-to guy for answers to "tough questions" it becomes a major part of their identity, which makes it that much more difficult and humiliating to own up to any personal doubt or, God forbid, admission of being wrong. I'm sure GAs experience also this phenomenon on a massive scale.

I finished the episode and it was excellent. The part about how they edited Bill out of the FAIR conference video was hilarious.

[Mackman]

I have to be a member to keep my family together but that of course is the only reason I am a member of the Utah Cult !!!!!! Faking it because you must is difficult especially at a more mature age as myself and the fact that I have been a branch president/invested 35 years of my life into it. Its not fake it until you make it is fake it because you must !!!!!!

[RubinHighlander]

I have to be a member to keep my family together but that of course is the only reason I am a member of the Utah Cult !!!!!! Faking it because you must is difficult especially at a more mature age as myself and the fact that I have been a branch president/invested 35 years of my life into it. Its not fake it until you make it is fake it because you must !!!!!!

I empathize bro! I'm fortunate I only had to fake it for a couple of years. I had 40+ years into it. I told DW I'd do another 40 more if for nothing else than to support her. Fortunately her kids figured it out and got out and that was her catalyst.

[jfro18]

Lord forgive me for having this thought but I know a few apologist types that love the massive ego boost that comes from "knowing all the problems and believing anyway." It's probably harder to wriggle out of a comfort zone when that comfort zone includes enjoying a relatively prominent place in the culture, especially when the alternative is complete obscurity.

This is absolutely true... and I think when I try to make a reasonable explanation as to what the Q15 *really* believe I run into this a lot. People love being looked at as an authority, and they love being able to feel like they're playing a role in the church. So with leaders they might realize there is no magic to being a "prophet, seer, and revelator," but man when they walk into a ward and everyone stands in awe... gotta be a great feeling.

I can give you a great example of a person like this - he trolls people on Twitter all day and writes really insane apologetics where he literally makes stuff up (read his recent Book of Abraham stuff where he tries to explain that Joseph actually got the facsimiles right). His twitter is at https://twitter.com/ConflictJustice if you ever want a good laugh or read his site for an even bigger one. He clearly gets off on being a guy that a few people go to for tough questions, and even though he is a nutjob (did I mention that already?), he tries to make everything work which is comforting when you're doing anything you can to hang on. Everyone loves to be thought of as the person that is seeing what no one else can see.

[Palerider]

Lord forgive me for having this thought but I know a few apologist types that love the massive ego boost that comes from "knowing all the problems and believing anyway." It's probably harder to wriggle out of a comfort zone when that comfort zone includes enjoying a relatively prominent place in the culture, especially when the alternative is complete obscurity.

This is absolutely true... and I think when I try to make a reasonable explanation as to what the Q15 *really* believe I run into this a lot. People love being looked at as an authority, and they love being able to feel like they're playing a role in the church. So with leaders they might realize there is no magic to being a "prophet, seer, and revelator," but man when they walk into a ward and everyone stands in awe... gotta be a great feeling.

I can give you a great example of a person like this - he trolls people on Twitter all day and writes really insane apologetics where he literally makes stuff up (read his recent Book of Abraham stuff where he tries to explain that Joseph actually got the facsimiles right). His twitter is at https://twitter.com/ConflictJustice if you ever want a good laugh or read his site for an even bigger one. He clearly gets off on being a guy that a few people go to for tough questions, and even though he is a nutjob (did I mention that already?), he tries to make everything work which is comforting when you're doing anything you can to hang on. Everyone loves to be thought of as the person that is seeing what no one else can see.

Having been raised in American culture where the movie heroes always save the world and get the girl and consequently the adoration of the audience, I think many if not most young people really WANT to be that guy. The church culture only compounds this with their own brand of hero worship in GA envy.

When I read the New Testament and realized that the one and only true Savior of the world was Christ it had a strange, relaxing effect on me in the sense that I came to understand that I would never be able to match the work that Christ had done and that the ultimate hero had already accomplished the work.

The great majority of us aren't going to have a huge impact on the world at large. At best we're going to be that friend, brother, sister, father, mother, etc. who made another feel good about themselves or loved and worthwhile, gave them a shoulder to cry on, helped them with a tough problem....

And that became a worthwhile and meaningful life for me. Not only do I not want to save the world or the church or thousands of people but in the case of the church especially I think it doesn't NEED saving or protecting. If it's God's church it will survive no matter what.

People who want to play the hero for the church need to grow up emotionally. Relax!!!
In 60 years the only people who are going to remember them are a few of their family members. They should just try to make sure those close relationships are working and take a big dose of humility....

[Raylan Givens]

I wonder if there's any way of knowing how many of the contributors to FAIR eventually tumble down the rabbit hole themselves and either move on or have to disengage from apologetics to avoid the need to move on.

I bet there aren't many. The FAIR contributors must be an internet savvy crowd, and if one of them eventually changed their minds, I would bet they'd want to say so online. Of course, they may be hiding because of social/family obligations like many of us have done, so that may be way off.

I hadn't thought about this. They have to be much more aware than most of us. I would imagine some have tumbled off the edge. One big one was Dan Vogel. I wouldn't want to tangle with him now.

I think you are right that some have probably just gone dark and are fighting the middle way challenges.

[moksha]

I'll finish on my bike commute home today.

This might help with your lengthy bike rides: https://www.newegg.com/promotions/nepro ... u-_-040119

Here's a question I have (maybe Bill addresses it later on). I wonder if there's any way of knowing how many of the contributors to FAIR eventually tumble down the rabbit hole themselves and either move on or have to disengage from apologetics to avoid the need to move on.

The perennial danger for those engaged in apologetics is stumbling onto the truth. I suppose it is a question of how truth-proof they have made themselves. It would be fun if Consiglieri and Bill could interview Kerry Shirts and Paul Osborn on their transition from apologists to apostates.

[1smartdodog]

Logic dictates that the truth does not need apologetics. It tends to be elf evident to those who are willing to be rational.

To me apologists try to turn it into something akin to quantum physics. As if it takes years of research to understand. I bet most of us it took a week or two of being exposed to the truth before we at least realized the church was not what it claimed to be.

The church may be messy but it is not complicated. Charismatic leader writes a book, dupes some people, sleeps with women. It happens all to often.

[Just This Guy]

Logic dictates that the truth does not need apologetics. It tends to be elf evident to those who are willing to be rational.

To me apologists try to turn it into something akin to quantum physics. As if it takes years of research to understand. I bet most of us it took a week or two of being exposed to the truth before we at least realized the church was not what it claimed to be.

The church may be messy but it is not complicated. Charismatic leader writes a book, dupes some people, sleeps with women. It happens all to often.

The mantra of apologetics is to take the whole idea of Occum's razor and throw it out the window. They have to because the simplest answer is one that they are not willing to accept and will basically put them out of a job.

I'll finish on my bike commute home today.

This might help with your lengthy bike rides: https://www.newegg.com/promotions/nepro ... u-_-040119

If your commute isn't long enough for your, here's an option to help:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb4nF4g85Rk

[jfro18]

FAIR is a juggling act - they have built a network of answers that can not possibly co-exist, but that's not the point because they're constantly sending you in different directions with the underlying theme that it's the *critics* who are the ones spinning you around.

Why are there King James errors in the Bible? Joseph recognized the passage and it was easier to just copy those sections out. (tight then loose translation?)

Why are there anachronisms? Well it's likely Joseph saw these things in vision but didn't know another word for it. (loose translation)

I was going to put a bigger list here but we all know how they work. I remember reading the FAIR reply to the CES Letter when I first got into all of this a year ago, and the first read through I thought "I don't really buy into the church, but I can see why others do."

It was the second time I read through the FAIR response that I started seeing how they did it... how they switched between loose and tight translation, literal BoA translation vs catalyst vs lost scroll, Joseph made some mistakes as a man but was a prophet when he wasn't making mistakes, Brigham taught Adam was God but it was also out of context even though it wasn't if you read it all... etc, etc.

It's all about doing whatever you need to do in order to get a member through a specific issue... divide and conquer.

[Arcturus]

I think for many of us FAIR was a gateway to apostasy. As you and Bill point out, you go there looking for help and discover the rabbit hole. It makes you wonder why the contributors to FAIR don't see it.

This was my experience.

[Just This Guy]

It's all about doing whatever you need to do in order to get a member through a specific issue... divide and conquer.

Provide the best answer to any given question, just hope that they don't stop to compare notes between different answers while they are not looking.

[Anon70]

Loved this episode. I thought it interesting that the Hales got so hostile to Bill personally. It seemed Bill tried to discuss the topics/issues and the Hales would attack him or play games (I can post links on your posts but you can’t on mine). Also the lengths FAIR went to in erasing Bill from their sites, etc was shocking. This is not the behavior of people who are objective and have confidence in their materials, IMO.

[slavereeno]

FAIR is a juggling act - they have built a network of answers that can not possibly co-exist, but that's not the point because they're constantly sending you in different directions with the underlying theme that it's the *critics* who are the ones spinning you around.

Exactly this. I had a couple of rounds with a friend of mine that is a pseudo-apologist. For every issue there was an answer, but the answers could only hold in individual silos. Every time I tried to put two answers side by side and asked him to be consistent, he changed the subject. It was impossible to take anything to a real conclusion or solid answer.

[jfro18]

Exactly this. I had a couple of rounds with a friend of mine that is a pseudo-apologist. For every issue there was an answer, but the answers could only hold in individual silos. Every time I tried to put two answers side by side and asked him to be consistent, he changed the subject. It was impossible to take anything to a real conclusion or solid answer.

Yep - and it happens on almost every issue... there's just no putting it all back together in a way that makes any logical sense.

-For Book of Mormon you have to use both a tight and loose translation at different spots
-For Book of Abraham you have to use a lost scroll, catalyst theory, or actual translation depending on the problem
-For polygamy you have to believe that God would take away Joseph's free agency even though that's a core part of Mormonism
-You have to believe that Joseph Smith could get revelation at will but the other 'prophets' don't because God is both an active and a passive God
-"Prophets" get things wrong when speaking as men, but otherwise speak as "prophets" of God
-DNA proves the Native Americans aren't Lamanites, so clearly there was another population here that's not mentioned in the BoM
-Joseph Smith and every prophet until recently said the Hill Cumorah in NY was same as BoM, but the church takes no official position on it
-The temple ceremony was perfected, unchangable and from God, yet prophets can change it as the social winds change

And so on. And so you read the apologetics and once you realize how they jump from one center to another, you then see how it can't possibly work if you maintain any consistency. So apologists bob and weave so you can't pin them down, and once you do they either run for the hills or slam down the 'magic' card.