Tribalism - Root of all evil?
- RubinHighlander
- Posts: 1906
- Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:20 am
- Location: Behind the Zion Curtain
Tribalism - Root of all evil?
Excellent Radio West today:
http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/sebastia ... together-1
Sebastian Junger on Conflict and Coming Together
As I exited Mormonism via critical thinking I began to see a pattern in many religions, governments, the military and other man-made institutions. They all basically controlled their masses via fear, guilt, special purpose/chosen ones via divine providence and thus superiority. Trump and Putin both run on a band wagon of nationalism and making the people/country great again. There's also a lot of misogyny that continues to carry through these organizations.
I've considered where this all came, our tribal past, and how humans might evolve out of it. There is evidence this is happening. Violence in general and against women is on the decline across the globe. Statistically the world is getting better; which includes a decline in religion. These changes in humanity and human evolution are happening at an exponential pace because of technology and the resulting prosperity. However, there is a downside. In our tribal state, humans that were not strong enough, naturally had shorter life spans and could not thrive (yup, Darwinism). In our modern society, uneducated or weaker humans can thrive. I'm not suggesting that's good or bad, just making an observation that we've made it possible, fairly recently, where any other species has not. Now, the other thing I want to point out is the human evolutionary challenge of moving away from the tribal survival wiring and into an altruistic existence of peace. The idea that war is bad is a given, but it does have negative impact on humans who have been biologically wired lived by it for so many years in order to protect their tribe and ensure it's survival.
It's been shown statistically that during peacetime and prosperity, depression and suicide rates climb. We are beginning to see a pattern emerge where the sense of nationalism and adversity drives us together into a state of combined purpose that actually fits into our recent tribal past. Especially for young men who feel a need to prove their worth to the tribe as providers and protectors. Now there's no more need for that in a well run and prosperous modern society but the desire is still there because of evolution. PTSD is often attributed, not only to the exposure to violence and horrific conditions and events, but also the loss of the tribe. No longer part of a small group that put their life on the line for each other, soldiers have great difficultly adjusting to the loss of their tribe. They are thrown back into the prosperous society and often have panic attacks in everyday places, perceiving a threat where there is none.
As I've thought about the world moving away from religion and into a altruistic peaceful society, this inherent tribalism in humans really comes into play. This could be a huge driver as to why so many still hang on to religion as a sense of purpose; it just feels right to them and they would feel lost with out it. This is all very interesting to me as I try to think about he future to humans as a species on this planet. If we don't nuke ourselves or go instinct from something else, will we evolve quickly to make this change away from tribalism and be able to function and survive in a peaceful society? Or, are we doomed to stay violent and mean to each other because it's just wired into how we are?
I was in the army for 20 years in the reserves and national guard, so not having fought in a war I don't know what PTSD is like. I do understand the tribal factor. One thing that helps me not feel the need to be special or feel depressed because I'm not in a tribe, either in the military, club or religion, is that I often go out into the wilderness shooting photography. I do notice that I can start to feel grumpy or even depressed if I don't get out at least once per week. Are these wilderness wanderings fulfilling some ancient evolutionary human need in me? Is religion fulfilling that need for many? I'm interested to hear from some of you NOMs that are more educated into the human social and psychological studies.
http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/sebastia ... together-1
Sebastian Junger on Conflict and Coming Together
As I exited Mormonism via critical thinking I began to see a pattern in many religions, governments, the military and other man-made institutions. They all basically controlled their masses via fear, guilt, special purpose/chosen ones via divine providence and thus superiority. Trump and Putin both run on a band wagon of nationalism and making the people/country great again. There's also a lot of misogyny that continues to carry through these organizations.
I've considered where this all came, our tribal past, and how humans might evolve out of it. There is evidence this is happening. Violence in general and against women is on the decline across the globe. Statistically the world is getting better; which includes a decline in religion. These changes in humanity and human evolution are happening at an exponential pace because of technology and the resulting prosperity. However, there is a downside. In our tribal state, humans that were not strong enough, naturally had shorter life spans and could not thrive (yup, Darwinism). In our modern society, uneducated or weaker humans can thrive. I'm not suggesting that's good or bad, just making an observation that we've made it possible, fairly recently, where any other species has not. Now, the other thing I want to point out is the human evolutionary challenge of moving away from the tribal survival wiring and into an altruistic existence of peace. The idea that war is bad is a given, but it does have negative impact on humans who have been biologically wired lived by it for so many years in order to protect their tribe and ensure it's survival.
It's been shown statistically that during peacetime and prosperity, depression and suicide rates climb. We are beginning to see a pattern emerge where the sense of nationalism and adversity drives us together into a state of combined purpose that actually fits into our recent tribal past. Especially for young men who feel a need to prove their worth to the tribe as providers and protectors. Now there's no more need for that in a well run and prosperous modern society but the desire is still there because of evolution. PTSD is often attributed, not only to the exposure to violence and horrific conditions and events, but also the loss of the tribe. No longer part of a small group that put their life on the line for each other, soldiers have great difficultly adjusting to the loss of their tribe. They are thrown back into the prosperous society and often have panic attacks in everyday places, perceiving a threat where there is none.
As I've thought about the world moving away from religion and into a altruistic peaceful society, this inherent tribalism in humans really comes into play. This could be a huge driver as to why so many still hang on to religion as a sense of purpose; it just feels right to them and they would feel lost with out it. This is all very interesting to me as I try to think about he future to humans as a species on this planet. If we don't nuke ourselves or go instinct from something else, will we evolve quickly to make this change away from tribalism and be able to function and survive in a peaceful society? Or, are we doomed to stay violent and mean to each other because it's just wired into how we are?
I was in the army for 20 years in the reserves and national guard, so not having fought in a war I don't know what PTSD is like. I do understand the tribal factor. One thing that helps me not feel the need to be special or feel depressed because I'm not in a tribe, either in the military, club or religion, is that I often go out into the wilderness shooting photography. I do notice that I can start to feel grumpy or even depressed if I don't get out at least once per week. Are these wilderness wanderings fulfilling some ancient evolutionary human need in me? Is religion fulfilling that need for many? I'm interested to hear from some of you NOMs that are more educated into the human social and psychological studies.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE
--Douglas Adams
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE
Re: Tribalism - Root of all evil?
I took a class once called comparative psychology, undergrad upper level, that compared human and animal psychology. The thing I left that class with would make B F Skinner blanch. What I learned in that class is that we humans operate much more on instinct than we think we do. As even non psychologists know, B F Skinner was all about behaviorism and how he could teach any animal anything and turn a human into whatever he chose. Later, behaviorist so ran head first into instinct. He could not teach any animal anything because certain instincts were so strong they interfered with the training. Human's are the same way. It is near impossible to teach something that goes against instinct.
Now many humans are arrogant enough to think humans can override instinct and that we almost exclusively use our upper brain and rational thought processes. Buffalo chips. We operate on instinct for lots of things. The problem is, that because we are operating on some kind of auto pilot, we don't SEE that it is really instinct. We just do it without much thought.
Tribalism = instinct
Racism = instinct
Homophobia = instinct
Laughing, burping, breathing, walking, asking for things, shushing our child with shshshshsh, nonverbal communication, mating, yeah all instinct.
So, since tribalism was once necessary for survival and certain aspects of it are instinctive we can't fight it. We have to fool it.
Let me give you an example. Dogs are really modified wolves. They have wolf instincts. So, why are they man's best friend? Especially when their ancestors ate our ancestors? Because we have fooled their instincts. Wolves run in packs and are loyal to the pack. But we raise a puppy, and he thinks humans, the cat and canary, are all part of his pack. So, rather than killing the cat and eating the canary, he thinks they are fellow wolves of his pack.
So, how do we fool humans into thinking that all other humans are the same tribe? We would have to get rid of all tribal markers of culture and language. And that isn't even enough as studies with children prove. Put a bunch of children together in camp and they find a way to divide into tribes. Even when they all are the same race and culture. They WANT to have their tribe and they want a group to compete against. So, they find or invent differences to hate each other over.
And then there are the other ways humans cannot get along. Racism is really fear of people outside our own tribe, those not like us. Homophobia is based on different instincts. For one, it is based on disgust for ...um...bathroom stuff. Being disgusted with such was a survival benefit because human parasites are spread from human waste. What is misogyny based on? What is the need for religion based on.
To really get humans to get along, you have to figure out a way to understand and fool each instinct. Humans were not designed by nature to get along with anyone other than their own tribe, just as wolves will defend their pack but attack a wolf from any other pack.
I recently read an article about Trump and Brexit and what is going on in a bunch of other countries by a historian/anthropologist. It was very good in that he used lots of examples (more than Hitler, he specifically said there are a good many differences between Trump and Hitler) to say that humans have cycles of peace and then self destruction. Some of his cycles were helped along more by a plague than a dictator. During the times of self destruction the pattern is the same, and he used dozens of examples. We divide ourselves into tribes and hate each other. Then we have a good killing each other off period, and when we have killed enough of each other (sometimes he said it can be over half of the population) then we go into the second half of the cycle where we get along better for a while. He said that Trump being elected and Brexit and the rising nationalism in many countries, the radical Islam and the Islamophobia, the partisan divide in the US, the isolationism of Brexit and the isolationism of Trump wanting to pull out of NATO are all part of this cycle and show that the world is headed into another self destructive period. He had some weak suggestions for fighting against the direction the world is headed, but my takeaway was "sit back and watch the fireworks cause ain't a thing we can do to stop the cycle."
Humans during our evolution competed for land and resources. We evolved with the need that when resources become tight, we kill other humans to solve the problem. How do we change this when we live on a world with limited resources?
Now many humans are arrogant enough to think humans can override instinct and that we almost exclusively use our upper brain and rational thought processes. Buffalo chips. We operate on instinct for lots of things. The problem is, that because we are operating on some kind of auto pilot, we don't SEE that it is really instinct. We just do it without much thought.
Tribalism = instinct
Racism = instinct
Homophobia = instinct
Laughing, burping, breathing, walking, asking for things, shushing our child with shshshshsh, nonverbal communication, mating, yeah all instinct.
So, since tribalism was once necessary for survival and certain aspects of it are instinctive we can't fight it. We have to fool it.
Let me give you an example. Dogs are really modified wolves. They have wolf instincts. So, why are they man's best friend? Especially when their ancestors ate our ancestors? Because we have fooled their instincts. Wolves run in packs and are loyal to the pack. But we raise a puppy, and he thinks humans, the cat and canary, are all part of his pack. So, rather than killing the cat and eating the canary, he thinks they are fellow wolves of his pack.
So, how do we fool humans into thinking that all other humans are the same tribe? We would have to get rid of all tribal markers of culture and language. And that isn't even enough as studies with children prove. Put a bunch of children together in camp and they find a way to divide into tribes. Even when they all are the same race and culture. They WANT to have their tribe and they want a group to compete against. So, they find or invent differences to hate each other over.
And then there are the other ways humans cannot get along. Racism is really fear of people outside our own tribe, those not like us. Homophobia is based on different instincts. For one, it is based on disgust for ...um...bathroom stuff. Being disgusted with such was a survival benefit because human parasites are spread from human waste. What is misogyny based on? What is the need for religion based on.
To really get humans to get along, you have to figure out a way to understand and fool each instinct. Humans were not designed by nature to get along with anyone other than their own tribe, just as wolves will defend their pack but attack a wolf from any other pack.
I recently read an article about Trump and Brexit and what is going on in a bunch of other countries by a historian/anthropologist. It was very good in that he used lots of examples (more than Hitler, he specifically said there are a good many differences between Trump and Hitler) to say that humans have cycles of peace and then self destruction. Some of his cycles were helped along more by a plague than a dictator. During the times of self destruction the pattern is the same, and he used dozens of examples. We divide ourselves into tribes and hate each other. Then we have a good killing each other off period, and when we have killed enough of each other (sometimes he said it can be over half of the population) then we go into the second half of the cycle where we get along better for a while. He said that Trump being elected and Brexit and the rising nationalism in many countries, the radical Islam and the Islamophobia, the partisan divide in the US, the isolationism of Brexit and the isolationism of Trump wanting to pull out of NATO are all part of this cycle and show that the world is headed into another self destructive period. He had some weak suggestions for fighting against the direction the world is headed, but my takeaway was "sit back and watch the fireworks cause ain't a thing we can do to stop the cycle."
Humans during our evolution competed for land and resources. We evolved with the need that when resources become tight, we kill other humans to solve the problem. How do we change this when we live on a world with limited resources?
- RubinHighlander
- Posts: 1906
- Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:20 am
- Location: Behind the Zion Curtain
Re: Tribalism - Root of all evil?
... the world is headed into another self destructive period
It does seem inevitable, but sure would be great to avoid this. I hate this cycle the most just because it plays into the Armageddon narrative and it would be really awesome to prove them wrong. Of course, every generation has their doomsday drama in mind, but only a few actually experience it; like the clock hitting 6pm at least once a day: "See, we were right!" But, as the NPR interview showed, without tribalism, in a prosperous modern society, there are no consequences for those alpha males at the top when they act selfishly. Those actions alone are enough to crack the thin ice of our extremely interdependent global societies. I guess if when those few at the top screw up enough to impact the majority of daily lives enough, there is revolution. My hope would be that more humans are more educated than ever before, more access to information. But it's not always the right information and as shown by our own recent election, it's still easy to fool a lot of people. Studies have shown that teens especially are easily fooled and poor critical thinkers to determine truth from fiction in social media.
99% of all the species of life on this planet are extinct, because they could not adapt but mostly because big catastrophic things changed the environment so much it just killed a bunch of them off in big waves. Any life on this planet faces really unfavorable odds, but survival of a few seems to be probable until the sun burns out or something big enough hits the Earth. If we can figure out how to live without the planet using our technology, before we destroy ourselves, then we might beat the odds. However, as you pointed out, our instincts will keep knocking us back if we can figure out how to fool them all.
I believe we have the technology to overcome the resource challenge. World population seems to naturally regulate and didn't stay on the curve they thought it would back in the 60's and 70's, with many countries on the decline. We are currently feeding more mouths than ever before because our food productive capacities have significantly increased. Violent crime is on the decline. We keep more people alive and from disease than ever before. We could make a rapid move off fossil fuel with current technologies like solar, better uranium reactors and thorium technologies - the challenge here is capitalism and economies of scale - back to the greed factor that does not make the best choices for the species, just a greedy few.Humans during our evolution competed for land and resources. We evolved with the need that when resources become tight, we kill other humans to solve the problem. How do we change this when we live on a world with limited resources?
I'd like to live long enough to see how it plays out, but I'm also happy to just pass to the next realm or given there's no conscientiousness after death, just have my ashes blowing on the wind across the mountains. The universe allowed us to exist and ask these questions and it can snuff us out without any consequence to itself whatsoever! Unless of course we were part of some big computer to try and provide the question to the answer: 42.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE
--Douglas Adams
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE
Re: Tribalism - Root of all evil?
I don't think you can call instinct evil and I don't think racism is based in fear alone, some of it is dislike and distrust.
Re: Tribalism - Root of all evil?
I think these are all learned behaviors. If we were raised by wolves we behave and think one way, if we were raised on Planet Risa we behave and think another way.alas wrote: Tribalism = instinct
Racism = instinct
Homophobia = instinct
Sometimes things go smoothly and the social compact of Thomas Hobbes helps ensure that our existence is not nasty, short, impoverished or brutish. Sometimes wrenches are thrown into the works and things break down. Trump's jingoistic nationalism has that wrench throwing feel to it.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha
-- Moksha
- RubinHighlander
- Posts: 1906
- Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:20 am
- Location: Behind the Zion Curtain
Re: Tribalism - Root of all evil?
I agree that racism in our society is primarily a learned behavior that is influenced by our culture, but I also think there are biological factors that play into making it so prevalent. Racism exists in Mormonism, not based on color (eh um, not anymore). It does exists in the the "We are special and you are not, unless you become one of us." world view. You still have to be adopted into the tribe to be fully accepted.
Can we agree that tribalism is not good or bad it's just part of how we evolved and how many of us are wired? I don't want to use it as an excuse for bad behavior, just that it factors into it. We have brains big enough to overcome it and evolve away from it. An example of innate tribalism is someone going through a tragic and difficult situation in a small group, then after they are out of that situation in relative comfort, they truly long for the way it was when they were suffering with the small close nit group that rallied together. This post depression leaving the tribe feeling could be felt by many of us NOMs as we exit the church.
I refer to tribalism as the root of evil, but not evil in and of itself, because it is in our biology and has impact on our moral compass. It has impact on our basic desire to survive and the altruistic decisions we make that helping the tribe helps us survive, group over self. In our modern society this plays into things that can impact our behaviors. Even if we were raised by wolves we would still feel a basic need to be part of a pack. We did the same thing with dogs when we domesticated them; we trick them into feeling like they are still part of a pack, thus fulfilling that innate biological behavior that evolution gave them. I'd like to see if humans can find a way to fix things like racism, both socially and with some trickery to help cushion the biological and tribal tendencies. Could this help us as a species permanently transition to peace and prosperity and stop the cycles of violence?
I hate to say it, but some major and immediate global threat would probably be what it takes to erase our nationalistic, racist and religious differences and bring us together. So bring on the alien invasion, but make it one we can defeat; is that asking too much? And, how long will it last once the enemy is defeated. This is why governments and religions invent fear of unseen things or catastrophic future events - it keeps the masses polarized to the cause. Satan and all his minions, continually hammering on you with their gnashing of teeth. This is war people! Even though it's not.
I also mentioned that I think I cushion/trick my tribal desires with getting out into nature, although this is more of a lone wolf situation. There is a physical and psychological impact for me. This could be akin to things like a runner's high, where endorphins are released and they become addicted to the sport. If we can find those things that work for each of us we could possibly curb the general bad trends in societies for things like war, racism, religion, fear, guilt, etc.
Can we agree that tribalism is not good or bad it's just part of how we evolved and how many of us are wired? I don't want to use it as an excuse for bad behavior, just that it factors into it. We have brains big enough to overcome it and evolve away from it. An example of innate tribalism is someone going through a tragic and difficult situation in a small group, then after they are out of that situation in relative comfort, they truly long for the way it was when they were suffering with the small close nit group that rallied together. This post depression leaving the tribe feeling could be felt by many of us NOMs as we exit the church.
I refer to tribalism as the root of evil, but not evil in and of itself, because it is in our biology and has impact on our moral compass. It has impact on our basic desire to survive and the altruistic decisions we make that helping the tribe helps us survive, group over self. In our modern society this plays into things that can impact our behaviors. Even if we were raised by wolves we would still feel a basic need to be part of a pack. We did the same thing with dogs when we domesticated them; we trick them into feeling like they are still part of a pack, thus fulfilling that innate biological behavior that evolution gave them. I'd like to see if humans can find a way to fix things like racism, both socially and with some trickery to help cushion the biological and tribal tendencies. Could this help us as a species permanently transition to peace and prosperity and stop the cycles of violence?
I hate to say it, but some major and immediate global threat would probably be what it takes to erase our nationalistic, racist and religious differences and bring us together. So bring on the alien invasion, but make it one we can defeat; is that asking too much? And, how long will it last once the enemy is defeated. This is why governments and religions invent fear of unseen things or catastrophic future events - it keeps the masses polarized to the cause. Satan and all his minions, continually hammering on you with their gnashing of teeth. This is war people! Even though it's not.
I also mentioned that I think I cushion/trick my tribal desires with getting out into nature, although this is more of a lone wolf situation. There is a physical and psychological impact for me. This could be akin to things like a runner's high, where endorphins are released and they become addicted to the sport. If we can find those things that work for each of us we could possibly curb the general bad trends in societies for things like war, racism, religion, fear, guilt, etc.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE
--Douglas Adams
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE
Re: Tribalism - Root of all evil?
I am not calling instinct evil. It isn't evil. It just *is*. Good and evil are terms that don't really exist in psychology. There is functional and disfunctional and instinct in humans can be either depending on the situation. It is "good" or "functional" in that having some things hard wired is the only reason our species survived. Does it ever cause things we would call good? Yes. Does it ever cause harm? Yes, when it is misapplied to situations for which our evolution does not cover. For example, tribalism is functional when we were living in small tribes. Tribalism is disfunctional when we divide our own society into subdivisions and claim only part as our tribe.Servant wrote:I don't think you can call instinct evil and I don't think racism is based in fear alone, some of it is dislike and distrust.
And, yes, my explanation of what causes racism was a huge oversimplification, but I just used one itty bitty aspect of a very complex human reaction to illustrate one small point. You really didn't want me to write the whole book did you?
- RubinHighlander
- Posts: 1906
- Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:20 am
- Location: Behind the Zion Curtain
Re: Tribalism - Root of all evil?
This is a topic that is very broad and takes up volumes. It's very complex and difficult to simplify, also difficult to get a point across in just a few paragraphs. Not sure where it could go from here, but I appreciate the comments. It helps me think about facets I could go and take a deeper dive into.alas wrote:You really didn't want me to write the whole book did you?
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE
--Douglas Adams
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE
Re: Tribalism - Root of all evil?
Sorry alas, no offence intended and no you shouldn't have to write a book. I often appreciate your posts and respect you though we have not met.