Test the Spirits

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deacon blues
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Test the Spirits

Post by deacon blues » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:13 am

I went to church with the kids and grandkids today in Texas. The speaker summarized David Bednar’s conference talk about Tests. Bednar talked about members preparing for and passing tests, but I thought about 1 John 4:1 and thought how it says to try or prove (test) the spirits, and - I think- the prophets as well. I was reminded of Deuteronomy 18:22. Evangelicals would sometimes use it as a scriptural test: if the prophet/spirit predicts something that doesn’t come to pass it proves that prophet/spirit is false. Joseph did not bat 1.000 on his prophecies- probably much lower. What does that tell us?
God is Love. God is Truth

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2bizE
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Re: Test the Spirits

Post by 2bizE » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:44 am

It tells us we have all been fooled. :D
~2bizE

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Hagoth
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Re: Test the Spirits

Post by Hagoth » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:54 am

I think Joseph said too much when he admitted that some prophesies come from men and some from the devil, and that apparently he couldn't tell the difference. I wish I could remember where I saw the Hyrum Smith quote where he claimed that revelations are about 10% accurate. In other words, worse than guessing.

I guess this is why we have "prophets" who no longer prophesy because they get it wrong just as frequently as self-proclaimed psychics. Remember how hard they pushed food storage in the 70s-80s? It had pretty much fallen off entirely their plate when an actual disaster came along. Remember Joseph Fielding Smith saying we would never reach the moon? Hinkley saying that nothing would come of the Iraq war? Oaks saying that marriage equality would decimate the population of the United States? Of course, they don't even dare call something a prophesy in the rare occasion they do make a prediction, in which case you have to ask what good are they?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Five
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Re: Test the Spirits

Post by Five » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:25 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:54 am
... in which case you have to ask what good are they?
Bingo. I had a testimony, I "knew" the prophets were of God because they had the singular authority to lead with inspiration. If they don't foresee things enough to give me a helpful heads up; if they declare doctrine that later can be found to be false or disavowed; if they blame me for not already knowing things that used to be anti-Mormon propaganda, then how is having them any different than the leaders of other religions and spiritual movements? Without that hold on singular authority, without it being applicable or useful to my life here, then I do not owe them my allegiance based on that.

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wtfluff
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Re: Test the Spirits

Post by wtfluff » Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:14 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:13 am
...
1 John 4:1 and thought how it says to try or prove (test) the spirits tell us?
...
Is this the same as trying to prove (test) ghosts?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

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Hagoth
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Re: Test the Spirits

Post by Hagoth » Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:33 pm

Five wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:25 am
... how is having them any different than the leaders of other religions and spiritual movements?
And once that lightbulb comes on the church loses all its magic. Poof.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Test the Spirits

Post by Hagoth » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:06 pm

Today I listened to RFM's review of Bednar's talk (I didn't listen to conference). So the test is whether we were faithful in having food storage, despite the fact that they have only mentioned it in 2 times in 2 decades? Does Bednar realize that many of the people he's talking too got married and started families long after the church stopped talking about food storage? Does he realize that those who do have it now probably have a ton of outdated food that they probably shouldn't eat? Is it totally lost on him that the people who really failed the test are the men who put themselves up on a pedestal as the Voice of Warning? And they were caught off completely off guard?

Amazing how he reflects the failures of the leaders back as blame on the victims. What an ass-hat (it's time that word returns to NOM).
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Advocate
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Re: Test the Spirits

Post by Advocate » Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:52 am

I haven't listened to the talk (and don't plan to), but I made a connection worth sharing. Over conference weekend I wondered why the church feels the need to make conference so long (10 hours over 2 days) and have conference twice a year. Then it hit me: the church wants to use the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy:
…[T]he epidemiologist Seymour Grufferman coined the term “Texas sharpshooter effect.” Stand way back and blast the side of a barn with a shotgun and then find some holes that are crowded together. Draw a circle around them and you have what looks like a bull’s-eye.*
Obviously the more bullet holes (i.e. talks on different subjects) there are, the easier it is to paint a bulls-eye.

What is really sad is how willing they are to paint a bulls-eye, given so few "on target" bullet holes and so many random other ones. If we figure each conference has 35 talks in it (average 7 per session * 5 sessions in each conference) that is 70 talks per year. Per the OP, food storage has been mentioned 2 times in 2 decades. 2 decades gives us 1,400 talks. 2 talks out of 1400 (.14% hit rate) is a bulls-eye in Bednar's view. The efficacy of the "prophets" is quite sad when viewed this way.

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Test the Spirits

Post by Rob4Hope » Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:58 am

Several years ago I was given a few books by Bednar. I don't remember the titles. What I do remember was they basically enthroned the position of "have enough faith NOT to be healed". In one book, I read things that were so offensive to me -- victim blaming -- that I dumped the lot in the trash.

There is a power-mentality and smugness that seems to raise its head in certain leaders.

BY -- He told the women of the church that he would grant them all divorces if they didn't quit their complaining. Truth was, however, that if that had happened, they would not have been able to support themselves because of discrimination,...so BY was speaking from a power place of smugness and control. His words were founded on a lie.

JFS -- His words in Doctrines of Salvation can best be described as 'cavalier'...possessing a sense of arrogant smugness that is quite irritating. A couple of places in that work come across as: "You people are so stupid. So,...I will throw you a bone by answering your question that you are too stupid to understand yourselves...."

BRM -- I remember reading his response after the 1978 Race decision came down. He said in effect: "I said some of those things. We work with the best light we have....but not is the time for ALL NON-BELIEVING people to get in line and follow the prophet and move forward." The way it came across was he was blaming the people, and not taking any blame for his own mis-founded position. That guy was a king of smugness and arrogance.

We have people like Bednar now. At the beginning of his tenure he gave that talk on "Tender Mercies"...and I had such high hopes for him. As time has passed, he has knuckled down into a conservative monster. He is a junior Darth Oaks.

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