Creation conundrum

[oliblish]

Is it fair or relevant to look at the intelligent design issue like this?

When people talk about needing a creator, a lot of it makes sense. For instance, if the earth were even a little bit closer to, or further from, the sun, then life on this planet, as we know it at least, would not be possible.

Another way of looking at this is...The earths placement in relation to the Sun IS WHY life was able even start and then evolve on earth. See no need for a creator...which is why those who study cosmology are looking for life ONLY on planets in other solar systems that have a similar proximity to their respective sun...its the only place in the universe that we know for certain can sustain life (as we understand it)

Yes, I could never understand why this was an argument for intelligent design. If I were to take a big bag of grass seeds and scatter them around a parking lot, should I be surprised that the only ones that grow are the ones that happen to land in cracks where they have access to soil and water?

[RubinHighlander]

It seems that each time humanity hits a wall with it's ability to understand and explain something, we tend to toss it over to the realm of a God or Gods. I think this describes the reoccurring intelligent design movement/view. Neil deGrasse Tyson does a good job showing this pattern throughout our recorded history to now. I think this provides a good argument for exercising caution when religions want to push their creationist or event intelligent design agendas in public classrooms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epLhaGGjfRw

Personally, after I left the church, it was hard for me to find God. Intelligent design was the only thing I had when I was a TBM to try and reconcile the conflict between evolution and the bible's creation narrative. PostMo, I've removed God and Satan from my daily life. Now, for me, God has been pushed way out beyond the big bang to some power or entity that kicked off the big bang, with no assumption about the form of this entity. Sometimes I express my gratitude to this unknown entity when I am looking at the Milky Way out in the wilderness where it can still be seen. I don't assume this entity/power is aware of me or can hear me but I am grateful non-the-less to exists at that moment in time. Perhaps I don't know if I have a purpose beyond what I've been allowed to evolve into, but I like to think that my conscious thoughts about the universe could be the universe considering it's own existence. Otherwise, I'm okay now with being on a constant path of discovery. I believe this is the path humans should be on and I also believe that religion stifles that.

[Hagoth]

Considering that we now know about thousands of other planets, and maybe only one or two of them is even potentially conducive to life as we know it, maybe a better question is why didn't God make more hospitable planets? It kind of sounds like luck of the draw for us earthlings.

[RubinHighlander]

Considering that we now know about thousands of other planets, and maybe only one or two of them is even potentially conducive to life as we know it, maybe a better question is why didn't God make more hospitable planets? It kind of sounds like luck of the draw for us earthlings.

I think the latest estimate of potentially habitable exoplanets in our own galaxy is around 60 billion. Now, with that being said, there is still the Fermi paradox. Are we the first advanced enough to look out there and listen? Are the others un-evolved and therefore undetectable? Have they already come and gone? With 99% of all species of life extinct on this planet, we know our chances were and are slim. These are the awesome questions we get the opportunity to grapple with.

[fh451]

I think the latest estimate of potentially habitable exoplanets in our own galaxy is around 60 billion. Now, with that being said, there is still the Fermi paradox. Are we the first advanced enough to look out there and listen? Are the others un-evolved and therefore undetectable? Have they already come and gone? With 99% of all species of life extinct on this planet, we know our chances were and are slim. These are the awesome questions we get the opportunity to grapple with.

The Fermi paradox is pretty depressing to me. It is one thing that makes me worry about the future of human life on this planet.

fh451

[RubinHighlander]

I think the latest estimate of potentially habitable exoplanets in our own galaxy is around 60 billion. Now, with that being said, there is still the Fermi paradox. Are we the first advanced enough to look out there and listen? Are the others un-evolved and therefore undetectable? Have they already come and gone? With 99% of all species of life extinct on this planet, we know our chances were and are slim. These are the awesome questions we get the opportunity to grapple with.

The Fermi paradox is pretty depressing to me. It is one thing that makes me worry about the future of human life on this planet.

fh451

I know what you mean. The odds are stacked against us as a species; our technology could save us or kill us all, it could go either way. The universe could easily kill us. So I just try reel myself into the now and carpe diem. On this planet we might only be a blip on the universe's life cycle and that's just likely how it is. In one cosmic moment the universe allowed for the existences of biological beings with a consciousness capable of looking out at it all and considering what it's all about; then in a moment it was gone, only to try again on some other little blue orb.

If anyone is not familiar with the Fermi Paradox, here's some links:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNhhvQGsMEc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fQkVqno-uI

Even the universe has a limited life:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_aOIA-vyBo

[well wandered]

Just for fun, let's assume it's proven that God did create everything. What would be the next piece of the puzzle we can move on to? Every conclusion anyone would want to draw from that is a non sequitur.

It doesn't prove anything except that there is a "God" and that he did create the universe. "God" being a word in a language we made up, and the only fact we know about "God" is that is the name we assign to what created the universe.

It doesn't prove sentience, and certainly doesn't prove He's a He, our Father, and that we're eternal beings, or He's capable of knowing and cares about what we do, think, and feel.

Until it becomes our business, the only thing that God creating the universe demonstrates is that God created the universe.

I think the question has a false significance because it's a begged question that every religion uses as a logical starting point, followed by numerous non sequiturs that all arrive at the same conclusion. God created the universe, or the earth-- because of us. He loved us, or wanted us to follow his laws, wanted to reward us with eternal life, wanted us to worship him forever, He's our literal father, or got bored and wanted to watch us for entertainment. Either way, religions find their unique way to weave the purpose of all physical existence back to us- as if the creation question is what starts the wheel to eventually prove that we're the reason "why" and therefore the end result. In a way the conclusions that religions draw from the assumption God created the universe, end up almost making God incidental to the creation question.

What I DO know, for absolute fact, is that I'm a complete moron and know absolutely nothing about this. My opinions are worthless but, you get what you pay for.

[Ghost]

It doesn't prove anything except that there is a "God" and that he did create the universe. "God" being a word in a language we made up, and the only fact we know about "God" is that is the name we assign to what created the universe.

This is one reason I don't really like applying the label "agnostic" to myself (even if it might technically fit), but I do like the term "ignostic." The question "Does God exist?" has meaning only so far as the person asking and the person answering have an agreed-upon definition of that they mean by "God." That involves some big underlying assumptions, and even agreement on one attribute or another doesn't mean it's accurate.

On a side note, as I was going through my initial phase of questioning it surprised me how quickly I moved from being nervous about the question of whether God exists and whether there's an afterlife to the question of what difference it really makes whether God exists and whether there's an afterlife. I mean, I cared a great deal whether these things were the case, but I guess I began to look at their actual meaning and significance for the first time.

[Hagoth]

The existence of a creator would not require that creator to be Yahweh. It might jist as well have been Tim the Enchanter.