Errand Of Angels

[Give It Time]

This may be too political and, if it needs to be removed, I understand.

This popped up in my news feed, yesterday. I'm not surprised by Sister Dalton's comments. I found them typical. I thought this rebuttal excellent. I really don't see how any person who proclaims a testimony of the gospel can refute what is said in this piece, but I know they will find a way.


https://medium.com/athena-talks/the-err ... .gn85b1w7y


Personally, I would like to know "Prophetess" Smart's opinion on all these matters.

[moksha]

I imagine Sister Elaine Dalton would prefer that women remain "sweet" and support the Kremlin candidate.

[Give It Time]

Pretty much.

I live in an area that is pretty much 100% Trump supporters. Proud, gloating, inviting liberals to leave the country Trump supporters. I look at these events and I think this just might cause a division in the church.

[Enoch Witty]

For a church that is supposedly "politically neutral," the public addresses sure do lean awfully political, in one specific direction.

[Corsair]

For a church that is supposedly "politically neutral," the public addresses sure do lean awfully political, in one specific direction.

"Politically neutral" is not the same thing as "unbiased". The 2008 Prop 8 situation in California certainly shows the areas where the church pushed a political agenda for reasons that seemed entirely rational to itself. I think the church was hoping to build closer political alliances with other conservative denominations. I am skeptical that this was successful since most of the Christian world still considers Mormons as "harmless weirdos involved in polygamy".

Give It Time linked an article from Medium about LDS women at the SLC March on the Capital. Elaine Dalton's comment in the article was

“I watched those women marching and yelling, and should I say, behaving anything but ladylike and using language that was very unbefitting of daughters of God,” she said. “As I watched all of that take place, my heart just sunk and I thought to myself, ‘What would happen if all those women were marching and calling to the world for a return to virtue?’”

To this, I reply, "Sister Dalton, if it is somehow morally 'unwise' for these women to protest at the capital, why was it OK for the LDS church to ask them to protest for Prop 8 in 2008? Why was it OK asking LDS women protest the Equal Rights amendment in 1979? Why was it encouraged for BYU students to support the Vietnam War in the 1960s? Why did LDS leadership try to influence Governor George Romney in the 1960s? Why did Heber J. Grant publicly oppose Utah's ratification of the 21st amendment ending prohibition? Why did Joseph Smith go to Washington D.C. in 1839?"

Realize that I remained politically conservative after my own faith transition unlike most ex-believers. I probably vote closer to Elaine Dalton than she might realize although she probably would be horrified at some of my political opinions. I am no fan of John F. Kennedy for lots of reasons, but I entirely agree with this statement from him:

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

From a strictly constitutional viewpoint of having an engaged citizenry, I consider people protesting to be a good thing even if I disagree with them.

[oliver_denom]

Was Dalton directly responding to the "pussy hat"? If so, then if she doesn't want people using the word pussy then she needs to consider electing someone who doesn't brag about grabbing them. Because grabbing women by the pussy is definitely an action unbefitting of a son of God.

Political action is often a re-action to people in power. If the people in power gained office through vulgarity, then it shouldn't be a shock to see the same vulgarity thrown back at them. It's not as if Trump got elected because of his manners.

[deacon blues]

For a church that is supposedly "politically neutral," the public addresses sure do lean awfully political, in one specific direction.

"Politically neutral" is not the same thing as "unbiased". The 2008 Prop 8 situation in California certainly shows the areas where the church pushed a political agenda for reasons that seemed entirely rational to itself. I think the church was hoping to build closer political alliances with other conservative denominations. I am skeptical that this was successful since most of the Christian world still considers Mormons as "harmless weirdos involved in polygamy".

Give It Time linked an article from Medium about LDS women at the SLC March on the Capital. Elaine Dalton's comment in the article was

“I watched those women marching and yelling, and should I say, behaving anything but ladylike and using language that was very unbefitting of daughters of God,” she said. “As I watched all of that take place, my heart just sunk and I thought to myself, ‘What would happen if all those women were marching and calling to the world for a return to virtue?’”

To this, I reply, "Sister Dalton, if it is somehow morally 'unwise' for these women to protest at the capital, why was it OK for the LDS church to ask them to protest for Prop 8 in 2008? Why was it OK asking LDS women protest the Equal Rights amendment in 1979? Why was it encouraged for BYU students to support the Vietnam War in the 1960s? Why did LDS leadership try to influence Governor George Romney in the 1960s? Why did Heber J. Grant publicly oppose Utah's ratification of the 21st amendment ending prohibition? Why did Joseph Smith go to Washington D.C. in 1839?"

Realize that I remained politically conservative after my own faith transition unlike most ex-believers. I probably vote closer to Elaine Dalton than she might realize although she probably would be horrified at some of my political opinions. I am no fan of John F. Kennedy for lots of reasons, but I entirely agree with this statement from him:

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

From a strictly constitutional viewpoint of having an engaged citizenry, I consider people protesting to be a good thing even if I disagree with them.

Thanks Corsair. Kennedy is not my favorite either, but that is a darned good quote.

[Give It Time]

Great comments.

I especially want to pull out this quote provided by Corsair, because it reflects my opinions.

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

The Boston Tea Party is a foundational story in our nation's history. The South may have lost the Civil War, but we are a nation of protestors and people who feel strongly enough to take productive action. I've had many people express dismay at the many protests happening, but I also see them as a good thing. They are evidence of free speech and freedom to assemble. Freedom to assemble is a reason why religious congregations are able to meet. I'm actually more concerned about the possibility of not being able to meet and speak freely than I am of someone saying something with which I might not agree.

[MoPag]

Because grabbing women by the pussy is definitely an action unbefitting of a son of God.

But Sister Dalton would blame the victim for the sexual assault. Here is a quote from the Deseret News article about this same talk: http://deseretnews.com/article/86567435 ... ciety.html

But when you are asked out, if you are pressured or pushed by someone who has taken you on a date to do something that you know is totally not right and is totally compromising all the standards and everything you have been taught to believe in as a young woman...do not come down.
“You be picky. You be fussy. You stay scarce and classy.”

So according to her, if you get your pussy grabbed...it was really your fault. Maybe you weren't being modest, or weren't where you where supposed to be. Or you just didn't try hard enough to not let your pussy get grabbed.

I wish she understood what kind of damage she is doing when she says things like this.

[MoPag]

https://medium.com/athena-talks/the-err ... .gn85b1w7y

Thank you for sharing this!!

I can't stand the constant "us vs the women of the world" rhetoric that is constantly jammed down our throats. Oscarson did it last Women's session of conference. She called the women of the church to be like Christ in one breath; then in the next, she told us to judge women who choose not to have children.

I think I figured out why they do it though. It is a classic bullying tactic: Put down other people to make yourself feel better. And all the better if those people embody everything you secretly want to be. When Sister Dalton looked at those women at the march, she saw a sisterhood that all the visiting teaching in the world couldn't duplicate. She saw women who were thinking for themselves. She saw women with the ability to speak up and speak out when they feel threatened or misused. She saw all of these things and knew she couldn't have them. So she lashed out at women she should be calling sisters.

I had never thought about the RS leaders as bullies. But it kind of fits. And the reason they are bullies...well I'm sure they learned from the best during their time in the COB.

[Give It Time]

The air at her elevation is too comfortable. I doubt she'll get it.

On another note, I like what the author says about angels. Most of the time, the scriptural role of angel is messenger. I think of the words to the hymn and, while there's nothing wrong with viewing women as the benevolent caretakers of the universe, it is romanticized, inaccurate and incomplete. Jesus would ratify that women were messengers.

Who was the first person proclaimed the Savior proclaimed Himself as the Messiah too? The woman at the well. Who was the first person he spoke to upon resurrection? Mary. Jesus' actually tells her to tell the disciples. So, Jesus did see women as messengers. Who needs to prophet or apostle when you can be an angel?

[Give It Time]

I didn't want to write this earlier this a few reasons, but I decided it was funny enough to share and I think it's a good coping mechanism.

Sister Dalton is doing a lot of damage, but she's toeing the party line. I've come to accept the church is what it is, it's leaders are how they are.

i'm going to give away a little of the snobbishness of my upbringing. When I was younger, I was taught that "classy" was not a proper variation on the word "class". Class, I was taught, was a refined manner of thought and behavior. If one wanted to refer to a person as "classy", a more appropriate term would be refined, honorable, elegant, gentlemanly. Michelle Obama's phrase "go high", a reference to taking the high road and a poetic counterpoint to "go low" is better phrasing than "classy". Still, I heard the term quite a bit when I was younger, frequently in a context similar to Sister Dalton's comments.

When someone would try to admonish/control me by telling me to stay or be classy, I'd assume a Bronx accent and a shrill voice, a la Adelaide in Guys And Dolls and would say something like, "okay, I'll stay classy, is this classy enough for ya?"

I shocked quite a few people. Whoever tried to admonish/control me never tried, again.

Ah, the stereotypes of my youth.

The leaders of the church mean well. They do. However, like the Roman soldiers, they don't know what they're doing and Christ would recognize that. Somehow I don't think the Savior would mind my having a snappy comeback.