redjay wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:54 am
Thanks John, I guess for me the more challenging question is, was Joseph inspired at all? As he was reflecting on theological questions, did God (in whatever form) put ideas for the betterment of his children into Joseph's mind (not revelation of accurate historical detail but moral myths) or was it all made up for personal gain, or did Joseph come to believe his own 'revelations'?
Do you think it even matters? E.g. Even if Joseph was a straight out inspired fraud we can ignore that and concentrate on the moral messages of his output (I know you touched on this a little in a previous thread)? If you don''t mind answering do you have any thoughts on this that you would care to share? Does the CoC hold any beliefs on these questions, or is it all down to personal interpretation?
Sorry for bombarding you.
No problem bombarding me, but I do feel like I need to write a book to try to answer these very wide-ranging questions.
Regarding "inspiration" and "revelation" and the image of "God putting ideas" into people's minds; these depend on theological/philosophical ideas. My ideas on these topics are very different from those promoted by the LDS hierarchy, which sees God as a physical, fleshy being, who is very human-like, who talks to humans like humans talk to each other. (And thus all LDS apostles are knowingly engaged in a kind of fraud, since they all know that God does not talk to them in this fashion; however, they all presumably rationalize their deceit by telling themselves, again incorrectly, that they are doing so much good.)
Augustine of Hippo --- one of the most important thinkers in Western Civilization --- described the Spirit not as the happy feeling you get at certain emotional moments in church (also in movies because Hollywood knows how to play those heartstrings), but as moments of epiphany. For example, when you're listening to lectures on relativity and time dilation and just doesn't make any sense and then suddenly after a couple weeks of this you really feel you get it. Inspiration, therefore, in my view, is like the story of Newton and the apple --- a metaphorical river of revelation open to all who are open to light and insight --- rather than a human-like being stuffing ideas into your head. "Spirit" in the classical sense is not a material ghost (as in Mormonism and the modern materialist conception), it is the immaterial, e.g., the realm of Ideas.
Does Newton's revelation make Newton a kind of prophet? I would say, certainly so. Although, he was obviously not inspired when he turned his attention to deciphering the Book of Revelation for future history (a project he spent just as much time on as physics and astrology). We have many examples of Joseph Smith doing highly uninspired and uninspiring things.
You can make the case very easily that Joseph Smith was just a charlatan. I don't deny that case; it's completely defensible. I think you can also make the case that he was a conscious, pious fraud, who thought he was doing good (like current LDS apostles), and I think you can make the case that he really believed the magic (like current LDS apostles probably do too, even if they wonder why they can't do the magic). My personal take is that he believed the magic and simultaneously harbored doubts and knew how much of the practice of scrying and folk magic was his own performance. And yet he still believed in the magic and wore talismans for magical defense.
And I think he also believed the Book of Mormon story --- everyone at the time believed the general history in the Book of Mormon as the widespread myth of the Moundbuilders --- although he knew that the various details were being spun out of his own head (which he may have argued to himself was channeling a real record). He may have believed there was an actual spiritual record --- the golden plates that no one could look upon and live --- and yet he most certainly knew that when he finally gave in to the curiosity seekers and constructed various props for himself --- i.e., a heavy wooden box nailed shut that people could heft --- that actual golden plates in a literal, physical sense were definitely not in the box. No matter how he justified it, he knew that portion of the performance was a prop that he had made.
You ask me does it matter? My answers above here are my own reading of the events, based on reading the many volumes of early testimony. We can't state motives definitely, so we can't prove what Joseph Smith thought he was doing (I think the answer is almost always multiple contradictory things at once) and as far as I'm concerned it doesn't particularly matter. It's interesting just for our understanding of Joseph Smith as a historical figure, but what he was doing and how he justified it to himself has no ongoing significance for me religiously, spiritually, cosmically.
Community of Christ doesn't hold any beliefs on the subject because the church takes no positions on history. We're not a credal church. Members are encouraged to do the research, come to their own conclusions, and to be respectful of others in sharing ideas and opinions about history.
In the church's perspective, the Book of Mormon, as scripture, should therefore be evaluated for its various theological propositions, which are read and understood in the historical context of its author (upstate New York during the Second Great Awakening) and not in the time it is purportedly set. In the same way the Pseudonymous Book of Daniel cannot be understood in the context of the Babylonian captivity --- since its true author was writing many centuries later during the reign of Antiochus IV Ephiphanes of the Seleucid Empire.
What is the future for the LDS church? Do you see it becoming more progressive in years to come and becoming like the CoC? Is the CoC growing with liberal and disaffected LDS looking for a new spiritual home? Does the CoC have/have plans for an online community for those who want to transition - e.g. there are no CoC meetinghouses in my country. Or would you simply suggest that Mormons seeking a new church find a local church that suits them of any Christian variety? FWIW I will be sticking around my LDS chapel as long as DW wants to, and after that I feel like a one man burnt over district - but if I was to go to Church of my own accord from what I've heard (which isn't too much) the CoC would be my natural spiritual home.