A Bible A Bible

[Bloodhound98]

Weird question here.
So in 2Nephy where it talks about A Bible A Bible.....Yadda yadda
When was the Bible actually called the Bible???? Obviously in Joey's time it was called a Bible. But in 600BC was it called a Bible????

[Spicy McHaggis]

That is one of my big shelf items (I have thousands of big shelf items it seems).

In 600 BC a bible didn't exist. The bible didn't exist until something like 300 AD. Hell, scripture didn't exist in 600 BC, no not even the brass plates. That scripture is such an obvious anachronism but as a TBM it never occurred to me.

Another one: Calling Jesus by name in 600 BC. Nobody even claimed Jesus was a savior until long after his death plus there is zero reference to Jesus or a savior from sin in the Old Testament.

Some days I want to punch myself in the face for ever believing that book. It's such an obvious fiction.

[Bloodhound98]

Yeah I've done a lot of reading but I never came across that view of how Nephi called the brass plates a Bible. I guess he knew our time right???? Lol
Do you think Joseph had a photographic memory? How did all those Isaiah chapters get in there? I've read lots of accounts how he never used the actual plates and he would pick up right where he left off. What's the prevailing theory? He had his Bible in his lap while he dictated what was to be written???

[Not Buying It]

Yeah I've done a lot of reading but I never came across that view of how Nephi called the brass plates a Bible. I guess he knew our time right???? Lol
Do you think Joseph had a photographic memory? How did all those Isaiah chapters get in there? I've read lots of accounts how he never used the actual plates and he would pick up right where he left off. What's the prevailing theory? He had his Bible in his lap while he dictated what was to be written???

I don't know what the prevailing theory is, but my theory is that he just pulled out his trusty King James and he and Oliver copied out of it. That makes way more sense than thinking he had the entire King James Bible in his head, or memorized extensive passages, or anything like that. Of course, that makes Oliver complicit in the fraud, but I have always thought that he was anyway.

I think those accounts of picking up right where he left off are faith-promoting fabrications. Who said that happened? Emma? Oliver? Martin? Those are the only people who "translated" with him, and I don't consider any of them to be particularly reliable or trustworthy.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Yeah I've done a lot of reading but I never came across that view of how Nephi called the brass plates a Bible. I guess he knew our time right???? Lol
Do you think Joseph had a photographic memory? How did all those Isaiah chapters get in there? I've read lots of accounts how he never used the actual plates and he would pick up right where he left off. What's the prevailing theory? He had his Bible in his lap while he dictated what was to be written???

I don't know what the prevailing theory is, but my theory is that he just pulled out his trusty King James and he and Oliver copied out of it. That makes way more sense than thinking he had the entire King James Bible in his head, or memorized extensive passages, or anything like that. Of course, that makes Oliver complicit in the fraud, but I have always thought that he was anyway.

I think those accounts of picking up right where he left off are faith-promoting fabrications. Who said that happened? Emma? Oliver? Martin? Those are the only people who "translated" with him, and I don't consider any of them to be particularly reliable or trustworthy.

And don't forget that they changed around a few words here and there to make it look more brass platey sourced.

[Spicy McHaggis]

Isiah in the BoM contains the translation errors from the King James bible that was printed in the late 1700s. The exact same King James bible that Joseph Smith's family owned.
Subsequent translations picked up on the errors and fixed them.
So, why on earth would Isiah in the BoM have translation errors from an anachronistic bible?
Also, most of Isiah was written after Lehi left Jerusalem so the brass plate wouldn't have contained Isiah.

[Hagoth]

I think those accounts of picking up right where he left off are faith-promoting fabrications.

Or another explanation could be that when he didn't know what he was going to say next he took a break, thought about it a while and then picked up again from the point where he got stuck.

There's another example of something like this that I have been looking for. Maybe someone can help me. There's a verse at the end of a chapter in the BoM where it sounds like the author doesn't know when Jesus died and then at the beginning of the next chapter he insists that he most certainly does know when it happened. It looks like Joseph took a break and looked it up and then came back and tried to patch the hole.

Ring any bells?

[redjay]

My thoughts were that Joseph was a religious savant. It is not unusual for Muslims to memorize vast swathes/all of the Koran

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36146637

so I have no problem thinking Joseph could have had lots of the bible committed to memory.

Recently I read some rather interesting theories on Joseph, Oliver and Sidney working together

See Mormonleaks.com

Which strangely is not about Mormon leaks at all - it's more of a word print study.

RJ

[Corsair]

In 600 BC a bible didn't exist. The bible didn't exist until something like 300 AD. Hell, scripture didn't exist in 600 BC, no not even the brass plates. That scripture is such an obvious anachronism but as a TBM it never occurred to me.

Another one: Calling Jesus by name in 600 BC. Nobody even claimed Jesus was a savior until long after his death plus there is zero reference to Jesus or a savior from sin in the Old Testament.

It is a head scratcher that the Book of Mormon answers a lot of 19th century questions that would feel strangely incomprehensible to a Bronze Age Israelite. It's a bit ananchronistic. Certainly the apologetic response is that the Book of Mormon was written for "our day", but the Book of Mormon feels increasingly irrelevant to the 21st century also. I can appreciate a basic Christianity of the Book of Mormon with faith, repentance, baptism, Holy Ghost, and the Trinity. But it's pretty easy to come up with existential questions that the Book of Mormon can't touch.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

My thoughts were that Joseph was a religious savant. It is not unusual for Muslims to memorize vast swathes/all of the Koran

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36146637

so I have no problem thinking Joseph could have had lots of the bible committed to memory.

Recently I read some rather interesting theories on Joseph, Oliver and Sidney working together

See Mormonleaks.com

Which strangely is not about Mormon leaks at all - it's more of a word print study.

RJ

I enjoyed that presentation method and lot of the evidence seems very compelling. I feel that the Sidney and Parley involvement pre-Kirtland seems far fetched due to geographic limitations however.

[Spicy McHaggis]

I just thought of another pre-Jesus absurdity: Baptism 150+ years BC.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

I just thought of another pre-Jesus absurdity: Baptism 150+ years BC.

There is that archeological site in Israel that the church says had a baptismal font, but who the heck knows if that was the true purpose or if it was simply like the hundreds of other pre-christian religion washing ceremonies.

[20/20hind]

Weird question here.
So in 2Nephy where it talks about A Bible A Bible.....Yadda yadda
When was the Bible actually called the Bible???? Obviously in Joey's time it was called a Bible. But in 600BC was it called a Bible????

Good catch. Never had realized that. His peep stone must have been malfunctioning.

Or he was drunk. Who knows?

[John Hamer]

Considering that almost immediately after the publication of the Book of Mormon, the revision of the Bible becomes a priority (called the "JST" by LDS people) and considering the JST achieved similar (albeit different) results in terms of the kind of changes made to the text, I think we can assume that the long quotations of the Bible in the Book of Mormon used the same process as the JST revision, i.e., having the text of the Bible open during the dictation process. I don't think that this would be viewed as a problem by Oliver Cowdery and the scribes, considering that the phyiscal plates themselves were never consulted during the dictation process. The use of the Bible face-open during the Book of Mormon composition process may have even been the genesis of the idea of a "new [spiritual] translation" of the Bible using the same spiritual practice.

[Bloodhound98]

So yes I can see him having his old text book about the war if 1812 Cowdery peeking at the book about scattered tribes of Israel and the good ole Family Bible in the middle. However, there is nothing to support that. I was just curious if anyone knew something I didn't know about it.
The Isiah not being written before Lehi left Jerusalem is very intriguing. Gonna see if I can hash some of that up

[redjay]

I think we can assume that the long quotations of the Bible in the Book of Mormon used the same process as the JST revision, i.e., having the text of the Bible open during the dictation process. I don't think that this would be viewed as a problem by Oliver Cowdery and the scribes, considering that the phyiscal plates themselves were never consulted during the dictation process. The use of the Bible face-open during the Book of Mormon composition process may have even been the genesis of the idea of a "new [spiritual] translation" of the Bible using the same spiritual practice.

John this is at odds with the information in the LDS Org Essay on BOM translation.
"When asked if Joseph had dictated from the Bible or from a manuscript he had prepared earlier, Emma flatly denied those possibilities: “He had neither manuscript nor book to read from.”

Do you find Emma's testimony to lack credibility?

RJ

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

So yes I can see him having his old text book about the war if 1812 Cowdery peeking at the book about scattered tribes of Israel and the good ole Family Bible in the middle. However, there is nothing to support that. I was just curious if anyone knew something I didn't know about it.
The Isiah not being written before Lehi left Jerusalem is very intriguing. Gonna see if I can hash some of that up

The deutero Isaiah problem is founded on the scholarly premise that there are 3 distinct authors for Isaiah text in the bible. One of the authors who was after Lehi's time shows up in BOM chapters quoting Isaiah. Unsurprisingly the BYU scholar response is to argue for single authorship for Isaiah.

[Bloodhound98]

You got a link to the BYU scholar? I don't know I'm so intrigued by this.
Secondly (is that a word) Emma made that testimony (which both sides use ironically enough) at the end of her life. She hate Brother Brigham and was dead set on making her church (RLDS/CC) the true Church. The BoM obviously being the keystone to both religions needed her support. I mean she in that same testimony declared that Joey had one and only one wife. SMH
I know what all the critics say, but most of it is circumstancial at best. Not defending them, but if this was OJ on trial the glove simply doesn't fit.
I also obviously realize that all the testimonies are just as circumstancial being that they had a piece if the skin in the game.
Isiah.....I like it

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

You got a link to the BYU scholar? I don't know I'm so intrigued by this.
Secondly (is that a word) Emma made that testimony (which both sides use ironically enough) at the end of her life. She hate Brother Brigham and was dead set on making her church (RLDS/CC) the true Church. The BoM obviously being the keystone to both religions needed her support. I mean she in that same testimony declared that Joey had one and only one wife. SMH
I know what all the critics say, but most of it is circumstancial at best. Not defending them, but if this was OJ on trial the glove simply doesn't fit.
I also obviously realize that all the testimonies are just as circumstancial being that they had a piece if the skin in the game.
Isiah.....I like it

Here is the BYU paper on Isaiah authorship:

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/isaiah-and ... authorship

[Bloodhound98]

Thanks!