BoM

[Bloodhound98]

Ok so I have been grappling with a lot of stuff. I feel I have read more than I ever have before in my life. I figure if I donated 1,000's of hours to Church Doctrine maybe it's okay if I makeup some of those hours in search for the truth!
So my big question is the prevailing theory on the story of the Book of Mormon. What I am looking for is hopefully a common belief.
Here are my beliefs in no particular order
1)Joseph was a religious savant and was possibly inspired to dictate a book he seemed as ancient scripture. Most of the subplots were made up in his head, to which he may or may not of actually believed that they actually happened (in his mind)
2) He did see Moroni and did get the Golden Plates and the beginning part of his life story is true and perhaps he went downhill once he gained power
3) Oliver Cowdery and his secular wisdom of other Books Late War, View if the Hebrews and maybe the Lost Manuscript. Either way they collectively put together something from their previous knowledge.
4) Joseph made it all up, rooting in his magical beliefs he came up with Moroni. He intentionally set out to fraud people and perhaps he was one of the greatest con-artist of his generation.
5) He was inspired by a higher power and perhaps given the times and his social friends (treasure hunters/magical occult) he thought the only way they would believe was through these magical tales. But the actual book was inspired?
6) You tell me

I get caught up in all the different stories and really don't know where I come down on all of this. I know he did bad things and by no means was a real Prophet of God by the end of his days. But is it possible he started off good? He brought forth some great religious beliefs in LDS and CoC and even some fundamentalist groups.
If any of you have read some of my previous posts I am like 6 weeks into this journey. I don't like angry arguments. I like truth and actual creditable links if you got em!!! This place is super awesome and I hope hope hope John Hamer chimes in!
Thanks guys and gals

[Red Ryder]

I can recognize my own thoughts and feelings in your writings when I was six weeks or so into my faith evaluation. Your doing well.

For me, it was a process of elimination starting with the understanding that most of what I was taught had "the rest of the story" element to it.

Over time, a pattern emerged which developed my ability to rationally think through this stuff and weigh what you know.

You can do this with your own beliefs you wrote above.

Is it possible that #1, #3, and #4 are true? They could be. Is it true that #2 and #5 are true? They could be. What if you weigh them out together? What is the most simple and easy to explain? What takes more belief than logic?

Keep going and keep asking yourself these questions. For some of us we had to turn over every story, think about every issue, and analyze every detail. You'll find you will become thirsty to learn far more than you ever did before. That's normal in this process.

The most important thing to remember is that it's ok to question and to think on your own. The world will become more colorful and meaningful in the process.

I'll also add a voice of warning. You're entering the rabbit hole. It's deep and scary and has the potential to change your life in ways you may not expect. Is it worth it? If so, what will you do with your life afterwards? That's the question you have to answer.

[Eiriceach]

Ok so I have been grappling with a lot of stuff. I feel I have read more than I ever have before in my life. I figure if I donated 1,000's of hours to Church Doctrine maybe it's okay if I makeup some of those hours in search for the truth!
So my big question is the prevailing theory on the story of the Book of Mormon. What I am looking for is hopefully a common belief.
Here are my beliefs in no particular order
1)Joseph was a religious savant and was possibly inspired to dictate a book he seemed as ancient scripture. Most of the subplots were made up in his head, to which he may or may not of actually believed that they actually happened (in his mind)
2) He did see Moroni and did get the Golden Plates and the beginning part of his life story is true and perhaps he went downhill once he gained power
3) Oliver Cowdery and his secular wisdom of other Books Late War, View if the Hebrews and maybe the Lost Manuscript. Either way they collectively put together something from their previous knowledge.
4) Joseph made it all up, rooting in his magical beliefs he came up with Moroni. He intentionally set out to fraud people and perhaps he was one of the greatest con-artist of his generation.
5) He was inspired by a higher power and perhaps given the times and his social friends (treasure hunters/magical occult) he thought the only way they would believe was through these magical tales. But the actual book was inspired?
6) You tell me

I get caught up in all the different stories and really don't know where I come down on all of this. I know he did bad things and by no means was a real Prophet of God by the end of his days. But is it possible he started off good? He brought forth some great religious beliefs in LDS and CoC and even some fundamentalist groups.
If any of you have read some of my previous posts I am like 6 weeks into this journey. I don't like angry arguments. I like truth and actual creditable links if you got em!!! This place is super awesome and I hope hope hope John Hamer chimes in!
Thanks guys and gals

I think I view it as a combination of a few of them. In the end, I've accepted that there is no way I can really know. Which is hard to say, especially having grown up in the Church and constantly stated that "I know" everything, when in reality I knew nothing. At best I was hopeful, but there was no way to know anything was true.

Anyway, I think it's possible he was divinely inspired, but in the end he was definitely off his rocker. And to be honest, if everything he did was sanctioned by God, especially all of the polygamy stuff (14 year olds, sending husbands on missions and then courting their wives for polyandrous relationships, etc.), then that God sucks and I wouldn't worship him anyway. But the longer I've been on this journey, the more I lean towards Joseph just making it all up. I mean, with all of the DNA evidence, and the fact that the Church (which should be inspired by God) changed the BofM intro from "principal ancestors" to "among the ancestors" of the American Indians, you start to wonder. I don't know, but I would think that God would have inspired his Prophet to tell the committee that wrote the intro on which words to use so they didn't end up with egg on their face when science advanced. It's just a tough pill to swallow with the anachronisms and the fact that literally nothing physical has been found that can be used to argue that the book is an actual ancient record. Not a single piece of steel, horse skeleton from that time period, or evidence of all of the bloody battles. It's one thing to have faith in spiritual things that can't be tested or proven. I'm fine with that. But having faith that these things actually occurred when the truth of the claims can actually be tested, and has been tested over and over again...it's tough for me.

But who knows, maybe next week they'll uncover a battleground with thousands of skeletons, chariots, and steel weapons in the Americas, and Joseph will be vindicated! I'm not holding my breath, though.

Also, regarding Joseph being a fallen prophet and the authority stopping there, I believe Brigham actually stated that he wasn't a prophet, but started accepting that title because the people kept referring to him as the prophet. He said something along the lines of 'Joseph was the only prophet, and there will never be another', or something like that. I'll search for the source, unless someone finds it before me.

[redjay]

From memory, Brigham referred to himself as a "Yankee Guesser"

[20/20hind]

4 and 5 on your list is what my view is. There are way to many anachronistic problems in the book for it to be a divine book. Look at what the book really is teaching...

Nothing new really. Joseph smith rarely taught from it. And it's totally boring.

So I tried to maintain some type of divine origin in the book, but when I looked at all the evidence stacked against it, common sense and logical reasoning won out for me.

Why would you have to ask God if a book is true?

Many members including myself never got that witness promised. I just got this thought in my head. "I already know it's true,so I don't need the witness." It wasn't until later in life that I realized I had fooled myself into believing.

The church teaches to read your scriptures everyday. Why? I have a few favorite books. I don't read them everyday. I can remember what's in the books. There is no other reason than to keep you in line. They have these Book of Mormon reading challenges all the time, why? To keep you indoctrinated.

This is another thought of mine that solidified it for me. Would god have a people bury ancient scripture, inform (send angel) to a future future prophet where it is, he goes and gets it, then go through all this crazy stuff of hiding it, translate it through a stone stuffed into a . Then have the book contain all the anachronistic problems. And Joseph tried to sell the copyright to it.

To me this scenario does not stand up to logical scrutiny. This whole thing is made up. But that's my own opinion.

[Red Ryder]

Here's a great documentary that you can watch on YouTube or Netflix that really brings into question the origins if human existence and migration. It also may answer questions regarding the existence of Lamanites and Nephites.

The Great Human Odyssey

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jALNCPeoqTw

[Hagoth]

Regardless of the specifics of the book's genesis, it remains an obvious product of the King James Bible and 19th century misconceptions about the origins of the Native Americans.

[Corsair]

Regardless of the specifics of the book's genesis, it remains an obvious product of the King James Bible and 19th century misconceptions about the origins of the Native Americans.

Try expressing this in front a faithful LDS believer and be prepared for a fight. The logic is supposed to be:

1. Faith in Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon
2. Therefore, faith in the prophetic mantle of Thomas Monson and the modern LDS church
3. Therefore, do your calling and pay your tithing

This is not some secret sequence of logic and obligationin the minds of your believing friends and family. This chain of commitment is occasionally spelled out with the implicit understanding that Romans 14:11 should read, "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one true and living church upon the face of the whole earth with exclusive priesthood power to administer the ordinances of salvation."

The Book of Mormon remains the first link in that chain and I don't see how it could be extracted without ending anything "special" about the institutional LDS church. I fear that Jesus Christ is accidentally relegated to a supporting role in LDS logic in favor of commitment to a singular, specific church organization centered in Salt Lake City, Utah.

[Palerider]

There really is no good or logical reason for not having the "gold plates" available for viewing and examination.

If we were to apply the same logic Joseph uses for the "no-show" plates to the Egyptian scrolls for the BofA which we are to assume are every bit as sacred as the BoM, then we shouldn't be able to view the scrolls because of how sacred they are either.

The reason we can see and examine the scrolls is because they actually exist.

This is the game of the con-man. Keep 'em believing with enticing lie upon lie until their emotional commitment won't allow them to believe otherwise. It definitely becomes a matter of "faith" but then how many times through history have people mis-placed their faith because they so badly wanted something to be true that really wasn't?

People are very good at building psychological constructs to protect the territory they have staked out. Everyone wants something solid that they can say, "This is true and I shall not be moved from it." Those constructs do not come down easily.

Joseph was excellent at peddling that kind of a security blanket to those who were seeking it. A cruel trick played on the mostly honest in heart and well intentioned.

[wtfluff]

6) You tell me

Well, you asked...

The Book of Mormon, and the myriad issues with it, was the final straw that caused my belief in the LDS Corporation to come crashing down.

If Joseph himself had actually believed that it was "scripture", he wouldn't have tried to sell the copyright.

If it were as "correct" as Joseph preached that it was, there wouldn't have been thousands of changes made to it.

If there were actually a shred of truth in the book about it being a history of people on the american continent, then there would be a shred of evidence that those people actually existed.

If it were semi-historical fiction like the bible, then again, there would be a shred of evidence that the people and / or the places mentioned in the book actually existed.


For me, it's a bunch of made-up lies. If I hadn't been born into the LDS corporation, I highly doubt I could have ever believed the Book of Mormon was anything other than made-up fiction. (And a bunch of stuff plagiarized from the King James version...)

[Bloodhound98]

This is great stuff!!! I love it. Keep em coming! I find the hardest part is that if the BoM is fraudulent then perhaps so was my 36 years of my life. That is why it's so impossible at my current stage to 100% accept the fraudulent theory. I want to desperately believe some part of it is divine/sacred/holy/inspired.
Seeing Joey tried to sell the copyright didn't increase my testimony at all for sure!
Keep preaching Ladies and Gents

[GoodBoy]

There are confusing and convoluted explanations that include magic basically, and presuppose that God is arbitrary, unfair, not very smart or wise, and also not very nice because he is deliberately making things hard to believe... or there is a simple explanation that makes everything fit into place and that there are many, many instances of throughout history.

I have settled on the simple explanation.

[No Tof]

There are confusing and convoluted explanations that include magic basically, and presuppose that God is arbitrary, unfair, not very smart or wise, and also not very nice because he is deliberately making things hard to believe... or there is a simple explanation that makes everything fit into place and that there are many, many instances of throughout history.

I have settled on the simple explanation.

I assume you refer to the historically common and simple "hoax" phenomenon?

If so, I second the motion.

[Bloodhound98]

So Hoax....That's fine.
So the BoM was just a clever hoax??? Do you give it any Credence to how it was crafted??? Was he just a fabulous storyteller? That is very hard to make up a story like that in a Biblical tone that probably was hard to speak in????
Just a brilliant man with a clever hoax?
Again not judging or even disagreeing. Just wanting clarification

[Palerider]

Regardless of the specifics of the book's genesis, it remains an obvious product of the King James Bible and 19th century misconceptions about the origins of the Native Americans.

Same here. I really don't care whether it sprang from Joseph's imagination or whether he colluded with Oliver and Sidney Rigdon. I don't have to PROVE where it came from. I only have to prove that it's a fake and a fraud.

[Palerider]

So Hoax....That's fine.
So the BoM was just a clever hoax??? Do you give it any Credence to how it was crafted??? Was he just a fabulous storyteller? That is very hard to make up a story like that in a Biblical tone that probably was hard to speak in????
Just a brilliant man with a clever hoax?
Again not judging or even disagreeing. Just wanting clarification

I really think you're giving Joseph and the BoM too much credit here. If you go back and see the issues of the day that were being discussed and look for the similarities between Biblical stories and BoM stories, plus realize that Joseph's family read consistently from the KJV, It's not that hard to come up with this stuff. And that's not to mention the books you referenced in your opening. Grant Palmer does a pretty good job of this in his book An Insider's View of Mormon Origins.

Also I think the church fudges on how quickly the BoM was "translated". If one looks at the time period from when the word went out from Joseph's family that he had been shown the plates by Moroni to the time when the "translation" was finished, it's actually a period of over 4 years. Does anyone ever stop to think that maybe he was working on his storyline for those four years rather than going to visit with Moroni once a year????

Hmmmm...........

[Bloodhound98]

I actually read something about that very thing. I don't care if it took 4 years or 3 months it's still an incredible piece of work. I also wonder if 150 years of adoring and benevolence towards one book made it that way for my generation????

[wtfluff]

I don't care if it took 4 years or 3 months it's still an incredible piece of work.

I've never really understood this "incredible piece of work" thing. Could you explain?

The timeline in the BoM is extremely confusing, and to really understand it you have to basically draw it out like a huge map.

The story-line is extremely repetitive: Take the BoM "pride cycle" story, and repeat it over, and over and over. Just change a few names here and there. That pretty much covers the entire book, minus the plagiarized sections.

There might be a few nuggets that are actually good here or there, but they are buried in mounds of pablum.

[Bloodhound98]

I don't care if it took 4 years or 3 months it's still an incredible piece of work.

I've never really understood this "incredible piece of work" thing. Could you explain?

The timeline in the BoM is extremely confusing, and to really understand it you have to basically draw it out like a huge map.

The story-line is extremely repetitive: Take the BoM "pride cycle" story, and repeat it over, and over and over. Just change a few names here and there. That pretty much covers the entire book, minus the plagiarized sections.

There might be a few nuggets that are actually good here or there, but they are buried in mounds of pablum.

Well like I said maybe it is the benovelance that my whole life has been programed into me. It's "ancient scripture" up until 6 weeks ago of my 37 years if existence. So in my mind it's still an incredible piece of work

[wtfluff]

I don't care if it took 4 years or 3 months it's still an incredible piece of work.

I've never really understood this "incredible piece of work" thing. Could you explain?

The timeline in the BoM is extremely confusing, and to really understand it you have to basically draw it out like a huge map.

The story-line is extremely repetitive: Take the BoM "pride cycle" story, and repeat it over, and over and over. Just change a few names here and there. That pretty much covers the entire book, minus the plagiarized sections.

There might be a few nuggets that are actually good here or there, but they are buried in mounds of pablum.

Well like I said maybe it is the benovelance that my whole life has been programed into me. It's "ancient scripture" up until 6 weeks ago of my 37 years if existence. So in my mind it's still an incredible piece of work

So what you're saying is: You think it's an incredible piece of work, because you've been told it's an incredible piece of work since you were born?