A Women's Organization That Is Presided Over By Men

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Give It Time
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A Women's Organization That Is Presided Over By Men

Post by Give It Time » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:50 am

I have a friend who is going through menopause. She is sharing her experiences on Facebook. As I read them, I realized this is the first time I've heard any of this information. I glean from her posts, this is uncharted waters for her, too. As far as I know, women aren't taught about menopause. I hear the grumbling complaint here or the snide comment there, but no formal education that says informative and helpful things like during the process of menopause, your body is going through withdrawal from hormones. Here are side effects you can expect, here are therapies that are helpful, here are the possible negative side effects from those therapies, here's the contact information for support in your area.

Is this an inappropriate subject for Sunday? I'd argue it isn't​, but I think it's a perfectly fantastic topic for mid-week and helpful information for the Relief Society bulletin. Now, I'm not sure how various bishops would handle having a Relief Society president floating this idea and essentially asking permission to have this be a midweek discussion topic. I'm sure there are many bishops who would be fine with it or think it's a great idea. There would also be many bishops who would think it's unnecessary and there are more important topics like how to intuitively know when your husband wants a sandwich so he doesn't even have to tell you to go into the kitchen and make him one. However, this is a women's organization women shouldn't even have to ask.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Re: A Women's Organization That Is Presided Over By Men

Post by Palerider » Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:34 am

The church is a funny thing. They claim they want to help spiritually and temporally, but it depends on how "private" the local leadership thinks the subject matter should be.
They might be of the opinion that all a female has to do is get online and talk to their doctor. But an actual support system???

Some may love it.

Others may say, "What's the big deal? It's just menopause. You "pause" for a moment and then everything's fine...."

Like you say, it's a women's organization. They should be about what helps women. I can see coordinating with the men to keep from running over each other's toes, but women should set their own agenda.
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Give It Time
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Re: A Women's Organization That Is Presided Over By Men

Post by Give It Time » Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:55 am

Palerider wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:34 am
The church is a funny thing. They claim they want to help spiritually and temporally, but it depends on how "private" the local leadership thinks the subject matter should be.
They might be of the opinion that all a female has to do is get online and talk to their doctor. But an actual support system???

Some may love it.

Others may say, "What's the big deal? It's just menopause. You "pause" for a moment and then everything's fine...."

Like you say, it's a women's organization. They should be about what helps women. I can see coordinating with the men to keep from running over each other's toes, but women should set their own agenda.
Actually, coordination is a good idea. I do think the men could benefit from what to expect and how to support, but I don't know how that would be worked into your curriculum and I don't run the priesthood. I just know that men, in general, want to be mensches for their wives.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Re: A Women's Organization That Is Presided Over By Men

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:58 am

I think one problem that might arise in introducing a medical topic into a church setting is all the unscientific and medically unsound advice that would be given. Up to and including healing crystals. You could be opening a pandora's box of bad advice. If the lesson were given by a trained and respected medical professional, then I could see that working.

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Re: A Women's Organization That Is Presided Over By Men

Post by Give It Time » Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:07 am

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:58 am
I think one problem that might arise in introducing a medical topic into a church setting is all the unscientific and medically unsound advice that would be given. Up to and including healing crystals. You could be opening a pandora's box of bad advice. If the lesson were given by a trained and respected medical professional, then I could see that working.
Agreed, here.

I was thinking about how education is provided for the onset of menarch, sex, pregnancy, post-partum and nursing.

Much of that education is provided through school. My pregnancy class was a community education offering, but I was told about it through my doctor. My friend didn't mention being told of any classes by her doctor or the receptionist (with whom she had a commiserating conversation, because she was going through menopause). Is it because, when women have reached a certain age, we don't want to go back to class like we're some teenager? Where would the classes be held and how would they be advertised, and then there's support? This is as big a life change as a young woman's first period and, yet, all women have to navigate essentially clueless and alone.

Then, I realized, RS would really be a perfect vehicle for this and it's not likely to ever happen, because it's presided over by men.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Re: A Women's Organization That Is Presided Over By Men

Post by Mormorrisey » Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:00 pm

This is utterly fascinating, and a really good idea to expand the vision of relief society to include things like this. Not to get too personal, but someone I know very well is at the menopause stage of life, and it would be great if she could share her feelings/get more information about this topic than just browsing the internet. For all of its foibles, the church at least has the possibility of providing forums for these kinds of discussions, if ONLY WOMEN WERE ALLOWED TO RUN THEIR OWN ORGANIZATION AS THEY SEE FIT. But as you know, this too is bishop roulette - I would have welcomed these kinds of activities when it was "enrichment" night, it is educational, after all. Yet I'm sure more squeamish conservative types would worry that it would turn into a complain-fest about their men, and God forbid, how women's bodies actually work. Which would be pretty cool too.

But until the majority of women in the church realize that they really DON'T run their own organization, "the oldest women's organization in the US" or so I'm told, great ideas like this will pretty much end up in the dumpster. Which is a shame.
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Re: A Women's Organization That Is Presided Over By Men

Post by Give It Time » Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:58 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:00 pm
This is utterly fascinating, and a really good idea to expand the vision of relief society to include things like this. Not to get too personal, but someone I know very well is at the menopause stage of life, and it would be great if she could share her feelings/get more information about this topic than just browsing the internet. For all of its foibles, the church at least has the possibility of providing forums for these kinds of discussions, if ONLY WOMEN WERE ALLOWED TO RUN THEIR OWN ORGANIZATION AS THEY SEE FIT. But as you know, this too is bishop roulette - I would have welcomed these kinds of activities when it was "enrichment" night, it is educational, after all. Yet I'm sure more squeamish conservative types would worry that it would turn into a complain-fest about their men, and God forbid, how women's bodies actually work. Which would be pretty cool too.

But until the majority of women in the church realize that they really DON'T run their own organization, "the oldest women's organization in the US" or so I'm told, great ideas like this will pretty much end up in the dumpster. Which is a shame.
It didn't occur to me that it doesn't occur to women that they don't run their own organization. You're right, though. They don't realize they don't run it. They just think they do. They come up with correlated ideas because...I don't know...some unwritten order, I guess. I
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Re: A Women's Organization That Is Presided Over By Men

Post by alas » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:28 pm

I am afraid this would run into liability issues and the church is supper paranoid about anything they could possibly be liable for. It would be "dispensing medical information" and I can't explain the problem with how the church could be liable if they brought in a doctor, but, some zillion years ago, when women had more control over their own organization, we wanted to do something along the lines of helping the many nursing mothers we had in this very young ward, and were forbidden to touch the subject because it was "dispensing medical information." We can get spiritual advice or marriage counseling from a plumber or car salesman, or allow our children to discuss sexual topics with an adult male, but the women listening to a nurse from the neonatal unit was too risky???!!!

As long as I live, I will never understand this kind of thinking.

Or was it really that the bishop was uncomfortable with the women discussing the functional aspects of female boobs? After all, talking about boobs is really a "sexual discussion" and we can't have that, because MEN see boobs as sexual rather than baby's lunch.

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Re: A Women's Organization That Is Presided Over By Men

Post by Give It Time » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:14 pm

alas wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:28 pm
I am afraid this would run into liability issues and the church is supper paranoid about anything they could possibly be liable for. It would be "dispensing medical information" and I can't explain the problem with how the church could be liable if they brought in a doctor, but, some zillion years ago, when women had more control over their own organization, we wanted to do something along the lines of helping the many nursing mothers we had in this very young ward, and were forbidden to touch the subject because it was "dispensing medical information." We can get spiritual advice or marriage counseling from a plumber or car salesman, or allow our children to discuss sexual topics with an adult male, but the women listening to a nurse from the neonatal unit was too risky???!!!

As long as I live, I will never understand this kind of thinking.

Or was it really that the bishop was uncomfortable with the women discussing the functional aspects of female boobs? After all, talking about boobs is really a "sexual discussion" and we can't have that, because MEN see boobs as sexual rather than baby's lunch.
Come to think of it, I've heard this not dispensing medical advice. I've also heard not dispensing financial advice. However, you make some good points about computer programmers dishing out marital and rape counseling. I have been in classes where we weren't given nitty-gritty information, but some very broad basics about financial Independence and starting your own business. So, the not dispensing advice sounds a little like a convenient excuse.

I can see another denomination--one where the clergy is trained and paid--offering classes such as we describe. I'm also thinking of things like the LDS Employment Office where they dispense all kinds of career advice and teach workshops for starting a small business and have networking meetings. I think if the church wanted to provide something like this for women, it could. I can make a pretty good guess as to why they provide career services and not women's health services. Career service results in jobs which results in tithing.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Re: A Women's Organization That Is Presided Over By Men

Post by Give It Time » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:20 am

I'm going to cry bonk on the church's excuse on it's not dispensing certain kinds of advice due to liability issues. I have believed for a very long time that if a woman goes to a bishop seeking assistance, because she is leaving her abusive husband and that bishop gives anything less than his full support and that woman or her children end up needing medical attention or are killed, then I believe the church bears some responsibility. If there is a suicide in that family, the church bears some responsibility.

They may be all smarmy and have the bishops say they can't advise to divorce or stay married, but then have that bishop talk that person out of divorcing. I know the church has participated in religious meetings with DV professionals and representatives of other religions to establish religious best practices. I know the representatives from the church dug in their heels and weren't cooperative. I know they've been teaching in high school health classes for a very long time that in cases of abuse, the only viable solution the vast majority of the time is divorce. None of this is new. All of this is common sense. The leaders of this church know that if a woman doesn't get full support in leaving her husband, she isn't likely to leave. I recently learned that if an abuse or rape victim isn't believed and supported when they take those first steps toward healthy choices (leaving or reporting), then that is the moment PTSD is imprinted on that person's brain. I'm pretty sure most bishops don't know that last fact, but I'm sure someone somewhere who sets policy within the church, knows that. I'm sure someone at Kirton/Mckonkie knows that. All of these reasons are probably why that 800- number the bishop is supposed to call to seek wisdom and advice when confronted with this type of issue goes to a lawyer rather than a crisis center.

Of course, the church removes itself from liability by keeping the clergy unpaid and, even though it's in the handbook and the bishop is instructed to follow that handbook, then the church is free to say it's only a handbook and each ward can choose how to operate. One thing that's occurred to me as I've been writing this. I've seen declassified CHI-1s. I've looked up this issue in those books, because I can tell you from experience the church has been doing things this way for a very long time. There is a pattern the bishop follows. I'm not a bishop, but I'm going to hazard a guess that this pattern they follow isn't provided by the CHI, but is provided by the lawyers at the hotline.

I have been advised by a bishop not to report abuse to the police. Heck, I know of a former bishop who advised one child beating up another and the person who heard that advice still took it as gospel, because once a bishop always a bishop.

Yep. I'm officially calling bull on the liability excuse for not providing instruction on certain topics. The church could issue a printed and verbal disclaimer at the beginning of the evening stating they don't necessarily endorse the information being provided.

That excuse is BS.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Re: A Women's Organization That Is Presided Over By Men

Post by moksha » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:41 am

I know that the Priesthood group can have discussions on finances and investments, but that affects Church revenue and as the Brethren Guild is always saying, "The tithing must flow".

Women's health care issues while vital for women are of lesser concern than Church revenue issues. Besides, there is always the ever-present danger that the Sisters might be exposed to so-called "feminist" ideas while discussing the ramifications of menopause.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Re: A Women's Organization That Is Presided Over By Men

Post by Give It Time » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:47 am

moksha wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:41 am
I know that the Priesthood group can have discussions on finances and investments, but that affects Church revenue and as the Brethren Guild is always saying, "The tithing must flow".

Women's health care issues while vital for women are of lesser concern than Church revenue issues. Besides, there is always the ever-present danger that the Sisters might be exposed to so-called "feminist" ideas while discussing the ramifications of menopause.
Too true.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Re: A Women's Organization That Is Presided Over By Men

Post by wtfluff » Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:21 pm

This is going to be a snarky response, but whatever, it's related to the Esteemed Penguin's reply.

Do you think that the "Men's Organization" ever discusses anything related to men's health? (Aging men, or otherwise?)

Not in my experience.

Bottom line: No matter who is "presiding" over these "organizations", the only goal of either the men's or the women's organization is to perpetuate the goals of the Corporate Sole.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Re: A Women's Organization That Is Presided Over By Men

Post by Give It Time » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:58 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:21 pm
This is going to be a snarky response, but whatever, it's related to the Esteemed Penguin's reply.

Do you think that the "Men's Organization" ever discusses anything related to men's health? (Aging men, or otherwise?)

Not in my experience.

Bottom line: No matter who is "presiding" over these "organizations", the only goal of either the men's or the women's organization is to perpetuate the goals of the Corporate Sole.

I get that, but if the organization were run by women, it could actually be more useful for women.

Anyway, this isn't just about menopause. This is about any topic that could be useful and beneficial to women, but aren't currently topics for enrichment, because the patriarchal perspective is just so entrenched.

Do you think there'd ever be an enrichment evening informing women of things like how they can choose a high-paying part-time job? Jobs that are part time, but still provide benefits? How about how to find and create streams of income? How about using enrichment night as a women's small business incubator?

Something tells me those won't fly, even though they potentially increase tithing dollars for the church.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Re: A Women's Organization That Is Presided Over By Men

Post by Can of Worms » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:56 pm

Give It Time wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:07 am
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:58 am
I think one problem that might arise in introducing a medical topic into a church setting is all the unscientific and medically unsound advice that would be given. Up to and including healing crystals. You could be opening a pandora's box of bad advice. If the lesson were given by a trained and respected medical professional, then I could see that working.
Agreed, here.

I was thinking about how education is provided for the onset of menarch, sex, pregnancy, post-partum and nursing.

Much of that education is provided through school. My pregnancy class was a community education offering, but I was told about it through my doctor. My friend didn't mention being told of any classes by her doctor or the receptionist (with whom she had a commiserating conversation, because she was going through menopause). Is it because, when women have reached a certain age, we don't want to go back to class like we're some teenager? Where would the classes be held and how would they be advertised, and then there's support? This is as big a life change as a young woman's first period and, yet, all women have to navigate essentially clueless and alone.

Then, I realized, RS would really be a perfect vehicle for this and it's not likely to ever happen, because it's presided over by men.
Years ago I was the RS counsellor in charge of Homemaking Meeting in a singles university student ward. I was determined to approach Homemaking differently. One month we brought in a community health nurse and she gave a session on breast health. Let's just say that only a small segment of the RS appreciated the direction we went. After that we had to offer two sessions each month - one traditional topic and one less traditional. We made progress over time - the month we choose stress reduction as the theme, only a handful signed up for the scripture-based session and we had to run two classes on massage techniques.

My point is, change has to be made slowly and by offering those resistant to change a safe place until the get used to the new ideas. I haven't been to an RS activity in at least 10 years because I didn't see the value in it for me. It seems like such a wasted opportunity to impact people in a positive and meaningful way.
Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.” Winston Churchill

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Give It Time
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Re: A Women's Organization That Is Presided Over By Men

Post by Give It Time » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:09 pm

Can of Worms wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:56 pm
Give It Time wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:07 am
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:58 am
I think one problem that might arise in introducing a medical topic into a church setting is all the unscientific and medically unsound advice that would be given. Up to and including healing crystals. You could be opening a pandora's box of bad advice. If the lesson were given by a trained and respected medical professional, then I could see that working.
Agreed, here.

I was thinking about how education is provided for the onset of menarch, sex, pregnancy, post-partum and nursing.

Much of that education is provided through school. My pregnancy class was a community education offering, but I was told about it through my doctor. My friend didn't mention being told of any classes by her doctor or the receptionist (with whom she had a commiserating conversation, because she was going through menopause). Is it because, when women have reached a certain age, we don't want to go back to class like we're some teenager? Where would the classes be held and how would they be advertised, and then there's support? This is as big a life change as a young woman's first period and, yet, all women have to navigate essentially clueless and alone.

Then, I realized, RS would really be a perfect vehicle for this and it's not likely to ever happen, because it's presided over by men.
Years ago I was the RS counsellor in charge of Homemaking Meeting in a singles university student ward. I was determined to approach Homemaking differently. One month we brought in a community health nurse and she gave a session on breast health. Let's just say that only a small segment of the RS appreciated the direction we went. After that we had to offer two sessions each month - one traditional topic and one less traditional. We made progress over time - the month we choose stress reduction as the theme, only a handful signed up for the scripture-based session and we had to run two classes on massage techniques.

My point is, change has to be made slowly and by offering those resistant to change a safe place until the get used to the new ideas. I haven't been to an RS activity in at least 10 years because I didn't see the value in it for me. It seems like such a wasted opportunity to impact people in a positive and meaningful way.
Thank you for this. I can actually see women being squeamish about less traditional topics. I also think that if the RS hadn't been wrested from the women's hands, less traditional topics would not have been so unusual. I'm glad you were able to break some new ground.

Kind of tangentially. I think it's interesting. It took some bold, pioneering spirit to be a member of this church in the early days. I read this post and how afraid the sisters were of something new and I'm wondering what happened? Where did this pioneering spirit go?
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Re: A Women's Organization That Is Presided Over By Men

Post by Enoch Witty » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:28 pm

Give It Time wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:58 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:21 pm
This is going to be a snarky response, but whatever, it's related to the Esteemed Penguin's reply.

Do you think that the "Men's Organization" ever discusses anything related to men's health? (Aging men, or otherwise?)

Not in my experience.

Bottom line: No matter who is "presiding" over these "organizations", the only goal of either the men's or the women's organization is to perpetuate the goals of the Corporate Sole.

I get that, but if the organization were run by women, it could actually be more useful for women.

Anyway, this isn't just about menopause. This is about any topic that could be useful and beneficial to women, but aren't currently topics for enrichment, because the patriarchal perspective is just so entrenched.

Do you think there'd ever be an enrichment evening informing women of things like how they can choose a high-paying part-time job? Jobs that are part time, but still provide benefits? How about how to find and create streams of income? How about using enrichment night as a women's small business incubator?

Something tells me those won't fly, even though they potentially increase tithing dollars for the church.
In my observations, Relief Societys the country over are overrun with MLM nonsense. They're getting advice on part-time jobs; they're just getting bad advice.

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Re: A Women's Organization That Is Presided Over By Men

Post by Give It Time » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:43 pm

Enoch Witty wrote:
Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:28 pm
Give It Time wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:58 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:21 pm
This is going to be a snarky response, but whatever, it's related to the Esteemed Penguin's reply.

Do you think that the "Men's Organization" ever discusses anything related to men's health? (Aging men, or otherwise?)

Not in my experience.

Bottom line: No matter who is "presiding" over these "organizations", the only goal of either the men's or the women's organization is to perpetuate the goals of the Corporate Sole.

I get that, but if the organization were run by women, it could actually be more useful for women.

Anyway, this isn't just about menopause. This is about any topic that could be useful and beneficial to women, but aren't currently topics for enrichment, because the patriarchal perspective is just so entrenched.

Do you think there'd ever be an enrichment evening informing women of things like how they can choose a high-paying part-time job? Jobs that are part time, but still provide benefits? How about how to find and create streams of income? How about using enrichment night as a women's small business incubator?

Something tells me those won't fly, even though they potentially increase tithing dollars for the church.
In my observations, Relief Societys the country over are overrun with MLM nonsense. They're getting advice on part-time jobs; they're just getting bad advice.
One thing I hated about being a SAHM, especially a Mormon SAHM, is the vast majority of invitations I received to socialize were selling parties. I'm a minimalist and am not a huge fan of clutter. I don't appreciate people trying to sell me crap. I don't like pressure sales tactics and being invited to a friend's home, who has worked hard to produce this event and being surrounded by my peers is extremely high pressure. At one party, I tried to make a token purchase. I had been to a lot of these things and the party subject was only a minor interest of mine. The main sales person informed me that I wasn't spending enough money. She pulled out a form that showed a list of packages to purchase. The most inexpensive was $70. They were expecting each person there to just drop $70 to $350! I wanted to support my friend, but she threw like four of these a year and I had about nine friends who did this regularly. Not one of these people so much as invited me to lunch. I got out of that circuit. I have a no selling party policy.

What I mean by part time jobs is something more like this. My therapist puts in a 29 hour work week. She sees clients for twenty-four hours a week. The remaining five hours, she conducts business. She charges $120/hr. I had a lawyer on my legal team who put in a half day on Tuesdays and Thursdays and did some of her work out of her home the rest of the week. She worked part time and charged $160/hr. A single mother could live a very comfortable and sane life if we taught our women to seek that sort of training and career. That's what I mean by part time.

Of course, I would be very surprised to ever see the church present such a strategy. I bring it up to illustrate that not all of the church's decisions are about generating tithing revenue.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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